ArmedWithKnowledge Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:02 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:02 PM I'm getting ready to take my brand new Sig P238 to the range for the first time to break it in a bit (going after work today) and I'm going to be using the same police silhouette targets that are used for the CCL range qualification (ordered a box of them from Amazon). With this on my mind, it got me thinking back to when I did the range qualification.Where I'm going with this train of thought is, I was truly shocked and appalled at the abysmal accuracy most of my fellow classmates displayed. Granted I was using a CZ 75 Compact as my gun (damn thing is a tack driver) and some of the other people had lesser handguns, but at the distances required for the qualification this shouldn't have made any difference (especially considering there was no time restriction on how fast you fired). For my part I had a ragged hole in the very center of the target, with one outlier that was still in the center area, just on the edge of the line for the innermost ring. I'm not bragging mind you, I was just so shocked at the lack of accuracy from the others. I did later learn that some of those people had never fired a handgun before, but many more of them had, multiple times in fact.So what I'm building to is, did anyone else notice that their fellow CCL classmates were absolutely horrible shots? And did you find this even the least bit disturbing? I know I did. I mean these people were being licensed to carry a loaded gun in public, and they could barely hit the broadside of a barn in a VERY controlled situation. Can you imagine what would happen if they actually had to draw and fire? It's lucky that the vast majority of CCL holders will never even have to draw their weapon in a SD situation, let alone fire it.Just something I was thinking about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdiver Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:04 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:04 PM Ok. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:09 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:09 PM Never thought about it actually. There are plenty of people that can't hit a barn while leaning against it that carry. Ever driven a car? I'm not sure how 75% of drivers passed their test. One guy at my paid tax of a class to utilize one of my constitutional rights, made a smiley face on his target while keeping it inside the passing grade. What a joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipshot Percussion Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:12 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:12 PM One guy at my paid tax of a class to utilize one of my constitutional rights, made a smiley face on his target while keeping it inside the passing grade. What a joke.By any chance, was his name Marty Riggs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hipshot Percussion Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:18 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:18 PM I just fired at the target - I wasn't looking to impress anyone by taking 10 seconds between shots to make a big hole in the paper. I fired ten down range, hit the target and moved along. We had a couple of guys who were making a 3-inch hole, but they were also the last ones still on the firing line. Other than that, I never much thought about it. And the truth of it is, just because you can make that 'ragged hole' doesn't mean that in a dire situation you will perform any better than anyone else on that same firing line... performing well in those situations is going to a lot more training other than just punching out paper targets. Just my 2¢ Stay Safe and Carry Responsibly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbacs Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:20 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:20 PM So you are for more training?Harder, tighter scores when shooting?I for one can't imagine someone getting better at shooting with practice! Congrats on qualifying and congrats to those "others" who passed the exam also........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydawg13 Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:25 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:25 PM You would do a lot more damage with a lot of holes all over the place then one small group in purple Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock23 Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:38 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:38 PM So what I'm building to is, did anyone else notice that their fellow CCL classmates were absolutely horrible shots? And did you find this even the least bit disturbing? I know I did. I mean these people were being licensed to carry a loaded gun in public, and they could barely hit the broadside of a barn in a VERY controlled situation. Can you imagine what would happen if they actually had to draw and fire? It's lucky that the vast majority of CCL holders will never even have to draw their weapon in a SD situation, let alone fire it. Just something I was thinking about. All that matters is that by the end of the day, the instructor was able to correct their issues and they shot a passing score. Otherwise, they didn't get their CCL, right? Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tbrooks Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:45 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 08:45 PM When I qualified, I just wanted to hit the target where it counted. I wasn't going for accuracy or anything. I still shot better than I expected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmyers Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:22 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:22 PM My classmates where good shots, since we all shot IDPA together we were about equal shots. It was our instructors first class, so he wanted all experience shooters in the class so we could give feedback and help him with ideas in case anything needed to be adapted. The shooting was just a formality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bo69 Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:33 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:33 PM This state gives people drivers license that can't read the English. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARFACE Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:39 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:39 PM I'm getting ready to take my brand new Sig P238 to the range for the first time to break it in a bit (going after work today) and I'm going to be using the same police silhouette targets that are used for the CCL range qualification (ordered a box of them from Amazon). With this on my mind, it got me thinking back to when I did the range qualification.Where I'm going with this train of thought is, I was truly shocked and appalled at the abysmal accuracy most of my fellow classmates displayed. Granted I was using a CZ 75 Compact as my gun (damn thing is a tack driver) and some of the other people had lesser handguns, but at the distances required for the qualification this shouldn't have made any difference (especially considering there was no time restriction on how fast you fired). For my part I had a ragged hole in the very center of the target, with one outlier that was still in the center area, just on the edge of the line for the innermost ring. I'm not bragging mind you, I was just so shocked at the lack of accuracy from the others. I did later learn that some of those people had never fired a handgun before, but many more of them had, multiple times in fact.So what I'm building to is, did anyone else notice that their fellow CCL classmates were absolutely horrible shots? And did you find this even the least bit disturbing? I know I did. I mean these people were being licensed to carry a loaded gun in public, and they could barely hit the broadside of a barn in a VERY controlled situation. Can you imagine what would happen if they actually had to draw and fire? It's lucky that the vast majority of CCL holders will never even have to draw their weapon in a SD situation, let alone fire it.Just something I was thinking about.If someone chooses to carry irresponsibly or with no knowledge of how to actually use their firearm, that is between them and their God. There are people who shouldn't be allowed to drive a car but do...I know many people who should have never brought children into the world but they did. I know people who should be living in a cage for the rest of their lives but they aren't. I know a guy who cannot resist letting everyone around him know he has a permit and is carrying. There will always be a section of any group who shouldn't be allowed to be involved in any said activity...but they participate anyway. That's the way it is. Maybe the saving grace is that the chances of ever having to use a firearm for self defense is so slight that it doesn't make one bit of difference anyway. IMO everyone who carries should get at least some training or at least practice regularly. That would be ideal but this isn't an ideal world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARFACE Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:40 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:40 PM This state gives people drivers license that can't read the English.This state gives drivers licenses to people that can't even drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stm Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:56 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 09:56 PM Your performance on the Illinois CCL course of fire has no direct correlation to your performance in a self-defense shooting. The purpose of the qualification course is to demonstrate to the instructor that you under the basics of handgun marksmanship and can safely load and fire your firearm. That is all, nothing more. It is an administrative test that bears no resemblance to the skills needed to survive a lethal force encounter. If you think you did pretty well on the qualification course, think about it some more, and pursue more training that is geared towards self-defense shooting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mic6010 Posted August 7, 2017 at 11:50 PM Share Posted August 7, 2017 at 11:50 PM I was kinda surprised at how many people in the class had never shot a gun before and then just decided they where gonna get a CCL just because they could. For me I'm not sure if I would have ever made that leap if I wasn't into firearms before it the FCCA came to pass. But everyones gotta start someplace, might as well be today.I did see one guy walking out with his target that was peppered all over to the limits but still just inside the scoring rings. He was shooting some kind of full sized .22 pistol. I'm guessing he had never shot a gun before. I definitely remember thinking to myself stay far way from that guy if you ever see him holding a gun lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glock23 Posted August 8, 2017 at 12:06 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 12:06 AM There was a girl in my class who'd never held a gun before... some of her initial shots were literally hitting the dirt underneath the target lol. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangrel Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:03 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:03 AM There was a girl in my class who'd never held a gun before... some of her initial shots were literally hitting the dirt underneath the target lol. Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-N920A using TapatalkYou laugh. That is recoil anticipation, and it is easily coached out by a good instructor. I have had students go from what you describe to 3" group in the x ring at 5 yards after 5-10 minutes of coaching. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brownshoe Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:09 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:09 AM My biggest issue was that my instructor thought I only hit the target once. It wasn't until he made me do it blindfolded with both hands tied behind my back that he believed I had actually hit the target 42 times. Mind you I did this with a Walther PPQ, which only holds 15 in the magazine. Of course, under stress, I imagine my groupings would vary by a couple of centimeters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sirflyguy Posted August 8, 2017 at 02:52 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 02:52 AM Your performance on the Illinois CCL course of fire has no direct correlation to your performance in a self-defense shooting. The purpose of the qualification course is to demonstrate to the instructor that you under the basics of handgun marksmanship and can safely load and fire your firearm. That is all, nothing more. It is an administrative test that bears no resemblance to the skills needed to survive a lethal force encounter. If you think you did pretty well on the qualification course, think about it some more, and pursue more training that is geared towards self-defense shooting.This. If a person is attacked by a static piece of paper, everyone who passes is good to go. We are checking a required box with this, and absolutely nothing more.It actually can create a false confidence about one's self-defense abilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soundguy Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:10 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:10 AM Armed... I thought you were going somewhere else with this. How'd your first outing with the new 938 go, a little low and left at first? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikew Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:21 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:21 AM Is requiring a performance-based test to in order to be able to CCW an infringement? Discuss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bubbacs Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:49 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:49 AM Is requiring a performance-based test to in order to be able to CCW an infringement? Discuss. In order to discuss the OP would have to reply, yes? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkroenlein Posted August 8, 2017 at 04:57 AM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 04:57 AM Is requiring a performance-based test to in order to be able to CCW an infringement? Discuss."A well regulated militia being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed." The second amendment only acknowledges the reason the right exists; it does not imply that there is a requirement that the militia actually be well regulated. Ergo, any requirement to establish proficiency, just cause, or any other qualifying criteria is, in fact, an infringement. This is not to say that the right is unlimited. It is not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinnyb82 Posted August 8, 2017 at 12:22 PM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 12:22 PM It shouldn't be required, but the stupidity of society necessitates the training requirement. Even if it weren't, I'd still advocate for training as it's just a good idea. Both for ones own personal safety and for that of others. We live in a world where some idiot can just phone it in, get a license to carry a loaded firearm, and that's that. They have little training, don't understand how a firearm functions, just wanna pick it up and go. They've been lulled into a false sense of security. Go to a Utah class and tell me that every last one of those people should be allowed to carry a concealed firearm. One woman in my UT class grabbed one of the instructor's pistols he brought for demonstration and started sweeping everyone, then looked down the muzzle of it, then asked him if it's a 45 (no it was a Walther 22LR, only off by a county mile). She also didn't have a FOID. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallbore Posted August 8, 2017 at 12:26 PM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 12:26 PM I do promote skill development but a woman does need to hold a two inch group at 50 yards to stop a rapist.A right is not dependant upon a skill. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarineVet Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:17 PM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:17 PM I do promote skill development but a woman does need to hold a two inch group at 50 yards to stop a rapist.A right is not dependant upon a skill.Agreed. "Marksmanship" depends on the goal. Her goal would be to stop the rapist. Tactical. Any rounds within the 9 or 10 rings of a B27 Silhouette target would be center mass and would probably kill the attacker (if he's not wearing armor.). Rounds inside the 8 ring would have a decent chance of thwarting the attack. Stress is an overriding factor. "Marksmanship" for a Bulls-Eye target shooter is hollowing out the bulls-eye. Competitive. Relaxation may be the overriding factor. Not sure... I'm not a bulls-eye shooter. But I know it's very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:43 PM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 01:43 PM Is requiring a performance-based test to in order to be able to CCW an infringement? Discuss.Not if we do it for the 1A too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarineVet Posted August 8, 2017 at 02:12 PM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 02:12 PM Is requiring a performance-based test to in order to be able to CCW an infringement? Discuss.Yes. And anything beyond "constitutional carry" is an infringement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldMarineVet Posted August 8, 2017 at 02:26 PM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 02:26 PM It shouldn't be required, but the stupidity of society necessitates the training requirement. Even if it weren't, I'd still advocate for training as it's just a good idea. Both for ones own personal safety and for that of others. We live in a world where some idiot can just phone it in, get a license to carry a loaded firearm, and that's that. They have little training, don't understand how a firearm functions, just wanna pick it up and go. They've been lulled into a false sense of security. Go to a Utah class and tell me that every last one of those people should be allowed to carry a concealed firearm. One woman in my UT class grabbed one of the instructor's pistols he brought for demonstration and started sweeping everyone, then looked down the muzzle of it, then asked him if it's a 45 (no it was a Walther 22LR, only off by a county mile). She also didn't have a FOID. Sent from my VS987 using TapatalkThe "stupidity of society? necessitates the training requirement?" I disagree. I'll ask you the question I ask cops, Of the 223,637 (Feb, 2017) Illinois Concealed Carry License holders, how many have been convicted of a gun crime? None of them know of any...I know of one...what do you say? People that consider society to be stupid tend to favor regulations to save them from themselves? and others? Need more government? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Draal Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:15 PM Share Posted August 8, 2017 at 03:15 PM Is requiring a performance-based test to in order to be able to CCW an infringement? Discuss.Yes. And anything beyond "constitutional carry" is an infringement. Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.