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#1 Jack1911

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 07:31 PM

Any one familiar with an Illinois statue that specifically says it is illegal to have ammunition in a court house? 



#2 mauserme

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 07:53 PM

Nothing off the top of my head...

What's up?

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#3 abolt243

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 07:57 PM

Once I remembered to disarm but forgot the loaded magazine in the ruler pocket of my carpenter's jeans.  The nice security guard held on to it for me while I took care of my business and I picked it up on my way out.  Had a nice conversation about concealed carry and the relative safety of surrounding larger towns.  Can't quote any specific law though.


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#4 spec5

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:46 PM

Ha ha. You'll bring attention to yourself when you empty your pockets into the basket when you are scanned.

Edited by spec5, 17 January 2017 - 11:34 PM.

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#5 ScopeEye

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:49 PM

I would imagine it would raise a flag at the airport


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#6 Bubbacs

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 08:54 PM

I would imagine it would raise a flag at the airport

There are court houses at the airport?
I guess there could be, but then it'd be a question about ammunition in a airport........

Wait....is the courthouse inside the concourse?
Or would it be outside the security of TSA?

*****scratches head*****

Edited by Bubbacs, 17 January 2017 - 08:55 PM.


#7 Weed

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:08 PM

Don't know about the law but I do know a guy was charged for having a single loaded 45 round in the Peoria County court house.
I don't remember the details but he may not have had a food card

#8 Weed

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:12 PM

Should have been foid card, he probably had a food card.

#9 Jack1911

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:20 PM

I visited my local courthouse today. I left my firearm in the car. I repeat, I left the firearm in the car. I keep a spare magazine with 6 rounds in my purse. (I have visited this same courthouse multiple times in the last 12 months, as I am attending trial hearings for a relative who is a murder victim) Today as I am going through security check, the police officer pulls me to the side and ask me if I did NOT see the sign at the entrance. I replied that I DID in fact see the sign. (conceal carry prohibited)  He then proceeded to treat me as a 2nd class citizen. He told me I was an irresponsible gun own owner and its illegal to bring ammo into a court house. While I stated that I have been here multiple times in the last 12 months and it was not an issue before. I asked for the exact statue or law so I could educate myself and others. He informed me that it is a class X felony, punishable by 6 to 30 years in prison. I apologized and stated that I was unaware that is was illegal. I stated that I would like to know how to locate this info. He replied "you want to get one of those permits, you need to learn the laws". I replied with I read the entire conceal carry bill and I do not recall seeing that". The officer stated that it is NOT the Illinois State Police's job to educate me, it is my job to educate myself and again told me that I was an irresponsible gun owner.  While I understand that he is just doing his job and is concerned for everyone's safety. If I broke the law, I take full responsibility for my actions. As I am trying to educate myself on the law that I broke, as he insisted was MY responsibility, but they could not direct me to the law itself.



#10 DoverGunner

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:28 PM

Personally I would have knocked him and his ego Many steps . Would have told him to charge me with his unknown law so I could get my Liar to hit him with a Lawsuit Put up or Shut up

 

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#11 mauserme

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:43 PM

There's no violation in the FCCA that's even close to a Class X.

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#12 Molly B.

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 09:52 PM

One would need to look in the criminal statutes also, not just the concealed carry act.  

 

 

 

Not seeing anything there either.


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#13 Jack1911

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:23 PM

Thanks Molly, I think I may have located it.  Illinois Criminal Code 2012. Our court house also has the County jail adjacent to it. While I was not entering the county jail facility, it has a separate entrance. The County Jail legal definition is "penal institution" and ammunition is considered contraband. I am guessing this is what he was referring to.........

(720 ILCS 5/31A-1.1) (from Ch. 38, par. 31A-1.1)
    Sec. 31A-1.1. Bringing Contraband into a Penal Institution; Possessing Contraband in a Penal Institution.

"Penal institution" means any penitentiary, State farm, reformatory, prison, jail, house of correction, police detention area, half-way house or other institution or place for the incarceration or custody of persons under sentence for offenses awaiting trial or sentence for offenses, provided that where the place for incarceration or custody is housed within another public building this Article shall not apply to that part of the building unrelated to the incarceration or custody of persons. 

    (a) A person commits bringing contraband into a penal institution when he or she knowingly and without authority of any person designated or authorized to grant this authority (1) brings an item of contraband into a penal institution or (2) causes another to bring an item of contraband into a penal institution.

(B) A person commits possessing contraband in a penal institution when he or she knowingly possesses contraband in a penal institution, regardless of the intent with which he or she possesses it

 

 

(7) Bringing into or possessing a firearm, firearm
    
ammunition, or explosive in a penal institution is a Class X felony.

 

 



#14 Jack1911

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Posted 17 January 2017 - 10:34 PM

Please note the part that says........provided that where the place for incarceration or custody is housed within another public building this Article shall not apply to that part of the building unrelated to the incarceration or custody of persons. 



#15 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 10:06 AM

I'm not sure about it being "hassled" about an empty holster in DuPage but I was told.... 

"You should leave that at home" 


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#16 Cerus

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 11:12 AM

It's been my experience that courthouse security is as bad as the TSA. I went to the Jackson County courthouse last week to pick up some small claims forms from the circuit clerk. The three security guards waved me on through even though I set off the metal detector with my belt buckle. They didn't even get out of their chairs or have me put anything on the X-ray machine belt.

I went back the next day to turn in the forms and only one guard was present from the previous day. I walked through the detector same as before and he immediately pointed to a small, badly printed sign stating belts, wallets, coats etc must be placed on the X-ray belt. He acted like I was an idiot for not seeing that one sign (which is about 2' overhead) among the half dozen other signs they have everywhere. The same sign that apparently didn't require enforcement the day before.

I'm just wondering what I could possibly be hiding in a leather belt that an X-ray machine would see and what sort of terrorist would give two $@#% about some little courthouse in a town of 7800.

I sure hope they never have a disgruntled employee. One came through ahead of me with a purse, bookbag etc and they just let her on through without a word.

#17 johnsxdm

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Posted 18 January 2017 - 11:28 PM

I had to go to court the week before Christmas in Oconto Wisconsin for probate. Walk into the building, 20 ft down the hall and walk right into the court room. No security anywhere.

#18 Xwing

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 09:48 AM

IMO it wasn't illegal, but you're not going to win anything arguing there with the guard.  You're not likely to change his mind, and escalating the issue will cause you a lot more grief than it will cause him.  Sometimes is easier to just say "ok", put the magazine in the car, and call it a day.  Regardless of the law, I can't imagine anyplace with active security / metal detectors would allow someone to bring in ammunition once they knew it was there.  Likely they never noticed it all the times before.


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#19 Tip

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 11:32 AM

Because one once, or even dozens of times, manages to get through security with an item does not make it legal to carry said item through security. If it did we'd all be able to carry most anything anywhere, especially airports if one is to believe the stories of what got through TSA. That said, if you really want to pursue the issue take it up with the security guards superior - drop a dime on the sheriff (or whomever the appropriate person is) and explain that one of their folks claimed you were violating the law but could not elucidate which one and you are curious as to which one and why said security would then ignore the situation when questioned.....
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#20 Glock23

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Posted 19 January 2017 - 01:28 PM

Because one once, or even dozens of times, manages to get through security with an item does not make it legal to carry said item through security. If it did we'd all be able to carry most anything anywhere, especially airports if one is to believe the stories of what got through TSA. That said, if you really want to pursue the issue take it up with the security guards superior - drop a dime on the sheriff (or whomever the appropriate person is) and explain that one of their folks claimed you were violating the law but could not elucidate which one and you are curious as to which one and why said security would then ignore the situation when questioned.....

 

I'd absolutely follow up with it.

 

There's zero reason for a cop / guard to be a total a**hat in the situation, for one thing... he's also obviously in need of some training, as he's clueless about the law.  At a minimum, if you're going to point to the FCCA GFZ sign in reference to your lecture, then what I'm supposedly doing wrong should absolutely be contained within the FCCA, and the cop / guard should damn well be able to articulate what that is.

 

Ultimately, though, I'd ensure that I got an apology from that cop / guard for treating me like crap and claiming that I was an irresponsible gun owner.

 

But that's just me, and I'm not the OP.  I would've went straight from the court house to his boss's office and started from there.


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#21 Mike

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Posted 20 January 2017 - 12:58 PM

It was nice of the guard to hold it for you.  They made me take my swiss army knife that I had forgotten back out to the car.



#22 skinnyb82

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 02:18 PM

Courthouses have detention areas. Well, many do. It would be kinda weird if you walked up to a deputy and asked "Hey, do you have cells for pre-trial detainees to wait for their court appearances?" That being said, their definition of "penal institution" defies the English language. Plain English, penal institution means...it doesn't mean a courthouse. It doesn't mean a police station. It means jail, prison, whatever. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#23 junglebob

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Posted 21 January 2017 - 08:02 PM

It was nice of the guard to hold it for you.  They made me take my swiss army knife that I had forgotten back out to the car.

 

I had to go to the Williamson County Courthouse a few years ago, before concealed carry when I "container transported".   I forgot about a loaded magazine in my pocket.  I go to empty my pockets and say "opps", the nice security guard offered to hold it for me, said don't forget to get it on your way out. I picked it up on the way out with no comment from him.  Yeah I'm in Southern Illinois.


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#24 Huski92

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 03:33 PM

Had the same thing at DuPage. Had my mag on my belt and did not give it a thought. He held it for me. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#25 junglebob

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 10:16 PM

Had the same thing at DuPage. Had my mag on my belt and did not give it a thought. He held it for me. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

It sounds like you didn't deal with the same security guard as SiliconSorcerer   (post#15) did at the Dupage Court House.  

 

As Cirus said in post #16 I've had different experiences at the Jackson Court House.  I've sometimes been waved to go through, and didn't have to go through the metal detector and at other times had to go through it and get wanded.  At tax paying time they just ask if you are paying taxes and wave you on.  Maybe its on days when court is in session that they are more careful.   I think the fillings in your teeth will set of their metal detector.  


Disarming the people (is) the best and most effectual way to enslave them. George Mason

Though defensive violence will always be a sad necessity in the eyes of men of principle, it would be still more unfortunate if wrong doers should dominate just men.  -  Augustine

Three school masacres have been stopped by civilians with firearms. Two with handguns and the third by a guy with a shotgun. (Pearl, Ms; Appalacian School of Law; Edinboro,Pa)


#26 Frank

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Posted 22 January 2017 - 10:54 PM

At a screening station, such as a courthouse, there is a difference between an illegal item and a prohibited item. An illegal item may be illegal for anyone to possess any place or any time, such as drugs, bombs, etc. Or an illegal item could be illegal if it is brought into the facility, such as a concealed handgun. You can expect to be arrested and have your item confiscated if you bring an illegal item into a protected area.

 

Then there are prohibited items. These items are generally lawful for the public to possess but they are prohibited by local rule at the facility you are entering. This could be a pocket knife, ammunition, cellular phone or even a camera. In general you will be asked to remove the item from the premises before entering the facility. Some facilities offer lockboxes at the entrance for these items. Some security screeners may offer to hold on to your prohibited item at the screening station for the duration of the visit. This is usually done as a courtesy and not a matter of policy.

 

As it was pointed out previously, "penal institution" would not include the part of the courthouse where prisoners are not held. But a courtroom could be a penal institution if there was a prisoner present for trial or a hearing. Possession of ammunition in a courtroom could very well be a Class X felony under these circumstances.

 

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#27 Glock23

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 11:44 AM

As it was pointed out previously, "penal institution" would not include the part of the courthouse where prisoners are not held. But a courtroom could be a penal institution if there was a prisoner present for trial or a hearing. Possession of ammunition in a courtroom could very well be a Class X felony under these circumstances.

 

I see no way to tie the courtroom into the definition of a penal institution, as it applies to incarceration and custody.  Just because a prisoner is still in custody while in a courtroom doesn't designate that courtroom as a place for custody.


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#28 Cerus

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 12:14 PM

 Maybe its on days when court is in session that they are more careful.


I wondered about that myself since there was a lot more cars in the lot and along the street on the second trip. Picked up the forms on Weds and filed them on Thurs. Doesn't explain why they had three guards on a slow day and one on a busy day though.

#29 papa

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 02:33 PM

 

 Maybe its on days when court is in session that they are more careful.


I wondered about that myself since there was a lot more cars in the lot and along the street on the second trip. Picked up the forms on Weds and filed them on Thurs. Doesn't explain why they had three guards on a slow day and one on a busy day though.

 

 

$ The other two were guarding the prisoner. $



#30 Frank

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Posted 23 January 2017 - 03:45 PM

 

As it was pointed out previously, "penal institution" would not include the part of the courthouse where prisoners are not held. But a courtroom could be a penal institution if there was a prisoner present for trial or a hearing. Possession of ammunition in a courtroom could very well be a Class X felony under these circumstances.

 

I see no way to tie the courtroom into the definition of a penal institution, as it applies to incarceration and custody.  Just because a prisoner is still in custody while in a courtroom doesn't designate that courtroom as a place for custody.

 

 

There are holding cells in the courthouse for prisoners who are there to attend a hearing or trial. When the enter the courtroom, they are still in custody.

 

 

 

"Penal institution" means any penitentiary, State farm, reformatory, prison, jail, house of correction, police detention area, half-way house or other institution or place for the incarceration or custody of persons under sentence for offenses awaiting trial or sentence for offenses, provided that where the place for incarceration or custody is housed within another public building this Article shall not apply to that part of the building unrelated to the incarceration or custody of persons. 

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