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SAF Sues Illinois Over Foster Parents' Civil Rights


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#31 Gamma

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 12:31 PM

 

If you're negligent in securing your firearms, then that's an entirely separate issue and DCFS needs to get involved if the couple has children. Period. I do not advocate reckless storage, propping up a rifle against a wall, placing a loaded pistol on a night stand or in the drawer. They cannot make a blanket "Well, you own guns, so you're probably an idiot who doesn't keep them in a safe, so we'll just make some idiotic law...." The road to heck is paved with good intentions.

I agree, there is a public safety issue here but they cannot just say "you own guns, bad parents." Bare minimum the provision is unconstitutional as applied, due to the simple fact that both parents hold occupational licenses (the mother is a state employee) and the father is also a firearms instructor. The state claiming that the couple cannot have a foster child because the kid "might" break into a gun safe is ludicrous. I have a child and I store all of my firearms accordingly. She can't get into anything....yet. But she will, and I'm ready for it. Unfortunately this case arises from irresponsible gun owners, parents, mucking it up for the rest of us.

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Get the foster kids FOID cards. Put the foster kids who get FOID's into homes of gun owners and those that cannot get FOID's ( disqualified ) to non gun owning families. /light purple

 

Would the ISP even process a FOID application for a foster child? Is a foster parent a legal guardian or is the state still the guardian?


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#32 BIGDEESUL

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 12:44 PM

Good to hear they're pursuing this. I have a buddy at work that fosters handicapped kids. He's wanted a gun for a long time, but can't due to this BS. Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

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#33 lockman

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 07:32 PM


 

If you're negligent in securing your firearms, then that's an entirely separate issue and DCFS needs to get involved if the couple has children. Period. I do not advocate reckless storage, propping up a rifle against a wall, placing a loaded pistol on a night stand or in the drawer. They cannot make a blanket "Well, you own guns, so you're probably an idiot who doesn't keep them in a safe, so we'll just make some idiotic law...." The road to heck is paved with good intentions.
I agree, there is a public safety issue here but they cannot just say "you own guns, bad parents." Bare minimum the provision is unconstitutional as applied, due to the simple fact that both parents hold occupational licenses (the mother is a state employee) and the father is also a firearms instructor. The state claiming that the couple cannot have a foster child because the kid "might" break into a gun safe is ludicrous. I have a child and I store all of my firearms accordingly. She can't get into anything....yet. But she will, and I'm ready for it. Unfortunately this case arises from irresponsible gun owners, parents, mucking it up for the rest of us.
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Get the foster kids FOID cards. Put the foster kids who get FOID's into homes of gun owners and those that cannot get FOID's ( disqualified ) to non gun owning families. /light purple
 


Would the ISP even process a FOID application for a foster child? Is a foster parent a legal guardian or is the state still the guardian?



Can the foster parents sign a permission slip for a field trip or a jumping excursion at one of those trampoline parks. If they can't sign as a legal guardian then any of the previously mentioned would be a fraud.

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#34 borgranta

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Posted 07 August 2016 - 11:21 PM

If you're negligent in securing your firearms, then that's an entirely separate issue and DCFS needs to get involved if the couple has children. Period. I do not advocate reckless storage, propping up a rifle against a wall, placing a loaded pistol on a night stand or in the drawer. They cannot make a blanket "Well, you own guns, so you're probably an idiot who doesn't keep them in a safe, so we'll just make some idiotic law...." The road to heck is paved with good intentions.
I agree, there is a public safety issue here but they cannot just say "you own guns, bad parents." Bare minimum the provision is unconstitutional as applied, due to the simple fact that both parents hold occupational licenses (the mother is a state employee) and the father is also a firearms instructor. The state claiming that the couple cannot have a foster child because the kid "might" break into a gun safe is ludicrous. I have a child and I store all of my firearms accordingly. She can't get into anything....yet. But she will, and I'm ready for it. Unfortunately this case arises from irresponsible gun owners, parents, mucking it up for the rest of us.
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Get the foster kids FOID cards. Put the foster kids who get FOID's into homes of gun owners and those that cannot get FOID's ( disqualified ) to non gun owning families. /light purple
 


Would the ISP even process a FOID application for a foster child? Is a foster parent a legal guardian or is the state still the guardian?



Can the foster parents sign a permission slip for a field trip or a jumping excursion at one of those trampoline parks. If they can't sign as a legal guardian then any of the previously mentioned would be a fraud.
This would also mean that Foster parents would not be able to legally fill out medical forms legally so giving a foster child a booster shot would be illegal since no legal guardian consented.
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#35 cgs

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Posted 08 August 2016 - 06:36 PM

SAF just got a $225k pay day from the old Moore/Shepard case from Illinois to find this new case against Illinois. 


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#36 gearsmithy

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 08:22 AM

Guys, this honestly has me concerned.  My wife and I are going through the adoption process right now and she brought up the question of whether or not our agency will deprioritize our placement because we have guns in the house.  I have 3 safes and keep my guns locked up at all times.  One of my buddies offered to store my gear for the home inspection but I'd rather not try to mislead a prospective mother.  I'm not sure if the rules are the same for foster parents as they are for adopting parents but I seriously has my wife worried that this will hurt our odds.  Does anyone have any experience with this other than the case mentioned?



#37 cgs

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 09:04 AM

Gearsmithy, I have nothing to add other than to wish you the best of luck in your adoption process. 

Maybe let your buddy clean your guns and safes for you.  You've kind of let them get crudded up afterall, and your buddy needs the practice cleaning.


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#38 vstar

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:38 AM

Guys, this honestly has me concerned.  My wife and I are going through the adoption process right now and she brought up the question of whether or not our agency will deprioritize our placement because we have guns in the house.  I have 3 safes and keep my guns locked up at all times.  One of my buddies offered to store my gear for the home inspection but I'd rather not try to mislead a prospective mother.  I'm not sure if the rules are the same for foster parents as they are for adopting parents but I seriously has my wife worried that this will hurt our odds.  Does anyone have any experience with this other than the case mentioned?

licensing process is the same for foster care, adoption, and private adoptions. sounds like you currently have a placement and this is  a private adoption. Is that right? When the home study is completed the worker will ask you about this and want to see them (along with all of the personal details of your life). I don't think that at an agency will want to jeopardize the adoption due to firearms especially if the child has been in your home and you are moving toward adoption. Sounds like you are making every effort to ensure that this is a safe environment for children and they will have no access to firearms. Ammo has to be locked up separate from the firearms and firearms have to be locked up. Don't have any loaded firearms when they visit, and let them know that you don't keep a loaded firearm. Loaded firearms aren't allowed. 

 

http://www.ilga.gov/...02sections.html

 

i)          Any and all firearms and ammunition shall be locked up at all times and kept in places inaccessible to children.  No firearms possessed in violation of a State or federal law or a local government ordinance shall be present in the home at any time. Loaded guns shall not be kept in a foster home unless required by law enforcement officers and in accordance with their law enforcement agency's safety procedures.



#39 gearsmithy

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:08 PM

 

Guys, this honestly has me concerned.  My wife and I are going through the adoption process right now and she brought up the question of whether or not our agency will deprioritize our placement because we have guns in the house.  I have 3 safes and keep my guns locked up at all times.  One of my buddies offered to store my gear for the home inspection but I'd rather not try to mislead a prospective mother.  I'm not sure if the rules are the same for foster parents as they are for adopting parents but I seriously has my wife worried that this will hurt our odds.  Does anyone have any experience with this other than the case mentioned?

licensing process is the same for foster care, adoption, and private adoptions. sounds like you currently have a placement and this is  a private adoption. Is that right? When the home study is completed the worker will ask you about this and want to see them (along with all of the personal details of your life). I don't think that at an agency will want to jeopardize the adoption due to firearms especially if the child has been in your home and you are moving toward adoption. Sounds like you are making every effort to ensure that this is a safe environment for children and they will have no access to firearms. Ammo has to be locked up separate from the firearms and firearms have to be locked up. Don't have any loaded firearms when they visit, and let them know that you don't keep a loaded firearm. Loaded firearms aren't allowed. 

 

http://www.ilga.gov/...02sections.html

 

i)          Any and all firearms and ammunition shall be locked up at all times and kept in places inaccessible to children.  No firearms possessed in violation of a State or federal law or a local government ordinance shall be present in the home at any time. Loaded guns shall not be kept in a foster home unless required by law enforcement officers and in accordance with their law enforcement agency's safety procedures.

 

Thanks for the info.  We're adopting through an apparently reputable agency near chicago. We don't have a placement yet, we're just starting our home study now but me being the gun guy that I am had my wife worried about it.



#40 chislinger

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 12:27 PM

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#41 Uncle Harley

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 02:08 PM

If you're negligent in securing your firearms, then that's an entirely separate issue and DCFS needs to get involved if the couple has children. Period. I do not advocate reckless storage, propping up a rifle against a wall, placing a loaded pistol on a night stand or in the drawer. 

 

Almost every house I went into when I was a kid had a rifle or a shotgun leaning up near the back door, and I bet almost every night stand had a loaded pistol.  IMO  it's only reckless if you don't bother educating your kids about the dangers, now  having  kids foster or not with possible  social issues,  I would agree that this would be reckless. 


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#42 GWBH

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Posted 16 August 2016 - 11:16 PM

 

If you're negligent in securing your firearms, then that's an entirely separate issue and DCFS needs to get involved if the couple has children. Period. I do not advocate reckless storage, propping up a rifle against a wall, placing a loaded pistol on a night stand or in the drawer. 

 

Almost every house I went into when I was a kid had a rifle or a shotgun leaning up near the back door, and I bet almost every night stand had a loaded pistol.  IMO  it's only reckless if you don't bother educating your kids about the dangers, now  having  kids foster or not with possible  social issues,  I would agree that this would be reckless. 

 

Uncle H - I agree.

I knew better than to touch a firearm without permission. But in those days, my dad warmed my butt for disobeying him.

My son is 35 years old, served 2 tours in Iraq, is a Major in the U.S. Army and STILL asks for permission to get into the gun cabinet.

Some lessons stay with you through your whole life. And yes - I warmed his butt more than once...

But I'm old - what do I know?


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#43 Molly B.

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Posted 22 August 2016 - 01:13 PM

Home day cares cannot have a handgun on the property. "16) Handguns are prohibited on the premises of the day care home except in the
possession of peace officers or other adults who must possess a handgun as a
condition of employment and who reside in the day care home.
17) Any firearm, other than a handgun in the possession of a peace officer or
other person as provided in subsection (a)(13), shall be kept in a
disassembled state, without ammunition, in locked storage in a closet,
cabinet, or other locked storage facility inaccessible to children.
A) Ammunition for such firearms shall be kept in locked storage
separate from that of the disassembled firearms, inaccessible to
children."

 

I've been thinking this over ever since this was posted. It looks to me like the  Firearm Concealed Carry Act provides an exemption from the handgun ban in home day care facilities:

    (2) Any building, real property, and parking area

    

under the control of a pre-school or child care facility, including any room or portion of a building under the control of a pre-school or child care facility. Nothing in this paragraph shall prevent the operator of a child care facility in a family home from owning or possessing a firearm in the home or license under this Act, if no child under child care at the home is present in the home or the firearm in the home is stored in a locked container when a child under child care at the home is present in the home.
 
 

I believe this means, if the operator has an IL carry license, the operator is exempted from the ban - as long as the carry gun is in a locked container while children in care are in the home.


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#44 cgs

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Posted 22 August 2016 - 01:28 PM

 

Home day cares cannot have a handgun on the property. "16) Handguns are prohibited on the premises of the day care home except in the
possession of peace officers or other adults who must possess a handgun as a
condition of employment and who reside in the day care home.
17) Any firearm, other than a handgun in the possession of a peace officer or
other person as provided in subsection (a)(13), shall be kept in a
disassembled state, without ammunition, in locked storage in a closet,
cabinet, or other locked storage facility inaccessible to children.
A) Ammunition for such firearms shall be kept in locked storage
separate from that of the disassembled firearms, inaccessible to
children."

 

I've been thinking this over ever since this was posted. It looks to me like the  Firearm Concealed Carry Act provides an exemption from the handgun ban in home day care facilities:

    (2) Any building, real property, and parking area

    

under the control of a pre-school or child care facility, including any room or portion of a building under the control of a pre-school or child care facility. Nothing in this paragraph shall prevent the operator of a child care facility in a family home from owning or possessing a firearm in the home or license under this Act, if no child under child care at the home is present in the home or the firearm in the home is stored in a locked container when a child under child care at the home is present in the home.
 
 

I believe this means, if the operator has an IL carry license, the operator is exempted from the ban - as long as the carry gun is in a locked container while children in care are in the home.

 

Molly that is absolutely my understanding as well. I never thought about it any other way.


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#45 Tvandermyde

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Posted 22 August 2016 - 02:17 PM

Home day cares cannot have a handgun on the property. "16) Handguns are prohibited on the premises of the day care home except in the
possession of peace officers or other adults who must possess a handgun as a
condition of employment and who reside in the day care home.
17) Any firearm, other than a handgun in the possession of a peace officer or
other person as provided in subsection (a)(13), shall be kept in a
disassembled state, without ammunition, in locked storage in a closet,
cabinet, or other locked storage facility inaccessible to children.
A) Ammunition for such firearms shall be kept in locked storage
separate from that of the disassembled firearms, inaccessible to
children."


That was the reason I wrote that
 
I've been thinking this over ever since this was posted. It looks to me like the  Firearm Concealed Carry Act provides an exemption from the handgun ban in home day care facilities:
    (2) Any building, real property, and parking area
    
under the control of a pre-school or child care facility, including any room or portion of a building under the control of a pre-school or child care facility. Nothing in this paragraph shall prevent the operator of a child care facility in a family home from owning or possessing a firearm in the home or license under this Act, if no child under child care at the home is present in the home or the firearm in the home is stored in a locked container when a child under child care at the home is present in the home.
 
 
I believe this means, if the operator has an IL carry license, the operator is exempted from the ban - as long as the carry gun is in a locked container while children in care are in the home.


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#46 mauserme

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Posted 22 August 2016 - 02:30 PM

Home day cares cannot have a handgun on the property. "16) Handguns are prohibited on the premises of the day care home except in the
possession of peace officers or other adults who must possess a handgun as a
condition of employment and who reside in the day care home.
17) Any firearm, other than a handgun in the possession of a peace officer or
other person as provided in subsection (a)(13), shall be kept in a
disassembled state, without ammunition, in locked storage in a closet,
cabinet, or other locked storage facility inaccessible to children.
A) Ammunition for such firearms shall be kept in locked storage
separate from that of the disassembled firearms, inaccessible to
children."


I've been thinking this over ever since this was posted. It looks to me like the Firearm Concealed Carry Act provides an exemption from the handgun ban in home day care facilities:
(2) Any building, real property, and parking area

under the control of a pre-school or child care facility, including any room or portion of a building under the control of a pre-school or child care facility. Nothing in this paragraph shall prevent the operator of a child care facility in a family home from owning or possessing a firearm in the home or license under this Act, if no child under child care at the home is present in the home or the firearm in the home is stored in a locked container when a child under child care at the home is present in the home.


I believe this means, if the operator has an IL carry license, the operator is exempted from the ban - as long as the carry gun is in a locked container while children in care are in the home.


The Department argues against that in regard to daycare facilities claiming, in a way, that administrative rule trumps statute. Rcpandr provided a link in Post #26.

This goes against the obvious legislative intent to allow firearm possession by foster children expressed in the FOID Act - ie a child's legal guardian can allow the child to apply for a FOID Card and, by extension, possess a firearm with the guardian's permission. Further, 720 ILCS 5/24-9 specifies the manner of storage required within the premises when a minor is likely to gain access to a firearm without the permission of his or her guardian.

The FCCA continues this logic by making the allowance you mention.

The Administrative Rules disallowing firearm possession in a foster homes is at odds with all of these statutory provisions.

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#47 skinnyb82

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Posted 09 September 2016 - 11:39 AM

Since when did administrative code preempt statute? Am I living in the twilight zone? Oh, right, I live in Illinois. That's a patently frivolous argument. They know it doesn't, it can't, and the state ought to be sanctioned for mounting such a frivolous defense. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#48 Coach Ice

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 02:25 PM

Guys, this honestly has me concerned.  My wife and I are going through the adoption process right now and she brought up the question of whether or not our agency will deprioritize our placement because we have guns in the house.  I have 3 safes and keep my guns locked up at all times.  One of my buddies offered to store my gear for the home inspection but I'd rather not try to mislead a prospective mother.  I'm not sure if the rules are the same for foster parents as they are for adopting parents but I seriously has my wife worried that this will hurt our odds.  Does anyone have any experience with this other than the case mentioned?

I've been through the adoption process twice now (once in 2007 and here this summer we finalized our second)  and you can have guns on the premises as long as they are stored as per the Chid Care act. The no hand guns on the premises issue is a licensed daycare issue.  



#49 Coach Ice

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Posted 21 October 2016 - 02:28 PM

Check this thread out....

 

http://illinoiscarry...97#entry1044538



#50 BobPistol

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Posted 22 October 2016 - 08:23 AM


The Department argues against that in regard to daycare facilities claiming, in a way, that administrative rule trumps statute. Rcpandr provided a link in Post #26.

 

IANAL, but isn't an administrative rule an interpretation of a statute?   If that is the case, then the rule doesn't trump a statute, but merely is an understanding of one.


The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#51 mauserme

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Posted 23 October 2016 - 03:33 PM

IANAL, but isn't an administrative rule an interpretation of a statute?   If that is the case, then the rule doesn't trump a statute, but merely is an understanding of one.


Yes, but its more an implementation of statute than an interpretation. Administrative rules should respect the legislative intent.

.
Link to ILGA House Audio/Video..........Link to ILGA Senate Audio/Video ..........Advanced Digital Media Link ..........Blue Room Stream Link

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Ephesians 4:31)

 

On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#52 BobPistol

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Posted 24 October 2016 - 06:55 AM

 

IANAL, but isn't an administrative rule an interpretation of a statute?   If that is the case, then the rule doesn't trump a statute, but merely is an understanding of one.


Yes, but its more an implementation of statute than an interpretation. Administrative rules should respect the legislative intent.

 

 

So the department's claim that administrative rules trump statute is obviously false. 


The Second Amendment of the Constitution protects the rest.

#53 skinnyb82

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Posted 25 October 2016 - 11:22 AM

Administrative rules should reflect legislative intent.... In other news, the Unicorn, Yeti, and Bigfoot were discovered today. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#54 kurt555gs

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Posted 29 October 2016 - 05:42 AM

So glad to see SAF take up another challenge in Illinois!  Thank you, Second Amendment Foundation!

 

Illinois seems to have an endless list that needs challenging. 


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#55 mikew

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:02 AM

https://www.saf.org/...r-parent-rules/

 

BELLEVUE, WA – A federal district court judge in Illinois has denied that state’s motion to dismiss a legal challenge by the Second Amendment Foundation of its foster parenting rules that place restrictions on the possession of firearms for personal protection.

 

SAF filed the lawsuit last summer on behalf of Kenneth and Colleen Shults in U.S. District Court for the Central District of Illinois. Named as a defendant in the case is George H. Sheldon, in his official capacity as director of the Illinois Department of Children and Family Services (IDCFS). SAF is joined by the Illinois State Rifle Association.

 

On Tuesday, District Judge Colin Stirling Bruce ruled that there are “sufficient factual allegations to state a claim to relief that is plausible on its face.” The complaint alleges that the state has deprived Kenneth and Colleen Shults of their civil rights under color of law.

 

“We brought this action on behalf of the plaintiffs to establish that the state’s restrictions on the possession and carrying of firearms by foster parents is unconstitutional under both the Second and Fourteenth amendments,” said SAF founder and Executive Vice President Alan M. Gottlieb. “We’re delighted that the judge will allow our action to go forward because it is important to establish that people do not surrender their Second Amendment rights in order to become foster parents. We’re in court to make sure that the state cannot discriminate against foster parents who merely wish to exercise the rights we’ve restored in Illinois.”

 

The case now enters the discovery phase, according to SAF attorney David Sigale of Glen Ellyn, Illinois.

 

The case is known as Shults et al v. Sheldon.



#56 chislinger

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:49 PM

Nice!
"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#57 gearsmithy

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:51 PM

Excellent!



#58 kwc

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Posted 11 January 2017 - 12:52 PM

Go David!!!


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