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Change to ISP CCL certificate


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#91 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 10:28 AM

This new certificate is WRONG, but a good attempt. I like how they allow us to check off the box of the prior training, but the 8 hours of training credit for military is NOT given under section 75(g) of the FCCA.
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#92 Molly B.

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:52 PM

This new certificate is WRONG, but a good attempt. I like how they allow us to check off the box of the prior training, but the 8 hours of training credit for military is NOT given under section 75(g) of the FCCA.


75(i) The Department shall accept 8 hours of training as

completed toward the 16 hour training requirement under this

Section, if the applicant is an active, retired, or honorably

discharged member of the United States Armed Forces.

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#93 Molly B.

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 12:56 PM

(g) covers giving 8 hrs. credit for accepted prior training - military is one of the accepted prior trainings.
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#94 bobapunk

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Posted 10 January 2014 - 09:43 PM

Are we going to have a new certificate to use every week?

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#95 rmp

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 01:51 AM

Does some one who took the 40 state firearm course and was/is a reserve deputy or Aux police officer exempt from training? The person in question is no longer a reserve deputy. The statute states "has qualified to carry a firearm as an
active law enforcement officer,......" does not say is active.
rmp

#96 bobapunk

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 05:43 AM

The trailer bill tried to clear that up...

Fully exempt:
(h) A person who has qualified to carry a firearm as an
active law enforcement or corrections officer, who has
successfully completed firearms training as required by his or
her law enforcement agency and is authorized by his or her
agency to carry a firearm; a person currently certified as a
firearms instructor by this Act or by the Illinois Law
Enforcement Training Standards Board; , or a person who has
completed the required training and has been issued a firearm
control card by the Department of Financial and Professional
Regulation shall be exempt from the requirements of this
Section.

Exempt from first 8 hours:
(j) The Department and certified firearms instructors
shall recognize up to 8 hours of training already completed
toward the 16 hour training requirement under this Section if
the training course is approved by the Department and was
completed in connection with the applicant's previous
employment as a law enforcement or corrections officer. Any
remaining hours that the applicant completes must at least
cover the classroom subject matter of paragraph (4) of
subsection (<img src='http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> of this Section, and the range qualification in
subsection (c) of this Section. A former law enforcement or
corrections officer seeking credit under this subsection (j)
shall provide evidence that he or she separated from employment
in good standing from each law enforcement agency where he or
she was employed. An applicant who was discharged from a law
enforcement agency for misconduct or disciplinary reasons is
not eligible for credit under this subsection (j).

The question remains, however, are reserve/auxiliary officers included in the definition of "law enforcement or corrections officer"...???

#97 Pipedoc

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 12:49 PM

I called ISP about this a couple of days ago for a student who is former county aux. ISP said no exemption at this time. This just doesn't make sense but then again what does in Illinois?

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#98 rmp

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:29 PM

I called ISP about this a couple of days ago for a student who is former county aux. ISP said no exemption at this time. This just doesn't make sense but then again what does in Illinois?


About as stupid as it gets with ISP. The 40 hr firearms course is THEIR course! They created it. They teach it at THEIR academy. But then again I should not be shocked by anything ISP does.
rmp

#99 Elderberry

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:33 PM

Is it ISP making those rules or is it coming from JCAR..??

I'll put something clever and witty here when I think of something.........

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#100 rmp

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Posted 11 January 2014 - 02:33 PM

The trailer bill tried to clear that up...

Fully exempt:

(h) A person who has qualified to carry a firearm as an
active law enforcement or corrections officer, who has
successfully completed firearms training as required by his or
her law enforcement agency and is authorized by his or her
agency to carry a firearm; a person currently certified as a
firearms instructor by this Act or by the Illinois Law
Enforcement Training Standards Board; , or a person who has
completed the required training and has been issued a firearm
control card by the Department of Financial and Professional
Regulation shall be exempt from the requirements of this
Section.

Exempt from first 8 hours:
(j) The Department and certified firearms instructors
shall recognize up to 8 hours of training already completed
toward the 16 hour training requirement under this Section if
the training course is approved by the Department and was
completed in connection with the applicant's previous
employment as a law enforcement or corrections officer. Any
remaining hours that the applicant completes must at least
cover the classroom subject matter of paragraph (4) of
subsection (<img src='http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> of this Section, and the range qualification in
subsection (c) of this Section. A former law enforcement or
corrections officer seeking credit under this subsection (j)
shall provide evidence that he or she separated from employment
in good standing from each law enforcement agency where he or
she was employed. An applicant who was discharged from a law
enforcement agency for misconduct or disciplinary reasons is
not eligible for credit under this subsection (j).

The question remains, however, are reserve/auxiliary officers included in the definition of "law enforcement or corrections officer"...???


It should not matter how they are defined. The point is they have taken and passed the State 40 hr firearm course. They will give a vet who has not been in the military in 50 years, and maybe has not even picked up a handgun in that past 50 yrs, 8 hrs of credit, but refuse to give some one who just took ISP's own 40hr firearms course last week any credit. Please explain this logic to me.

Edited by rmp, 11 January 2014 - 02:34 PM.

rmp

#101 Pipedoc

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 09:06 AM

Is it ISP making those rules or is it coming from JCAR..??


If I am not mistaken, ISP writes the rules and the presents them to JCAR for approval. They had the opportunity to include this recognition of prior training in the rules if they wished and I'm sure JCAR probably wouldn't of opposed it.

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#102 bobapunk

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Posted 12 January 2014 - 11:57 AM

The trailer bill tried to clear that up...

Fully exempt:

(h) A person who has qualified to carry a firearm as an
active law enforcement or corrections officer, who has
successfully completed firearms training as required by his or
her law enforcement agency and is authorized by his or her
agency to carry a firearm; a person currently certified as a
firearms instructor by this Act or by the Illinois Law
Enforcement Training Standards Board; , or a person who has
completed the required training and has been issued a firearm
control card by the Department of Financial and Professional
Regulation shall be exempt from the requirements of this
Section.

Exempt from first 8 hours:
(j) The Department and certified firearms instructors
shall recognize up to 8 hours of training already completed
toward the 16 hour training requirement under this Section if
the training course is approved by the Department and was
completed in connection with the applicant's previous
employment as a law enforcement or corrections officer. Any
remaining hours that the applicant completes must at least
cover the classroom subject matter of paragraph (4) of
subsection (<img src='http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/cool.png' class='bbc_emoticon' alt='B)' /> of this Section, and the range qualification in
subsection (c) of this Section. A former law enforcement or
corrections officer seeking credit under this subsection (j)
shall provide evidence that he or she separated from employment
in good standing from each law enforcement agency where he or
she was employed. An applicant who was discharged from a law
enforcement agency for misconduct or disciplinary reasons is
not eligible for credit under this subsection (j).

The question remains, however, are reserve/auxiliary officers included in the definition of "law enforcement or corrections officer"...???


It should not matter how they are defined. The point is they have taken and passed the State 40 hr firearm course. They will give a vet who has not been in the military in 50 years, and maybe has not even picked up a handgun in that past 50 yrs, 8 hrs of credit, but refuse to give some one who just took ISP's own 40hr firearms course last week any credit. Please explain this logic to me.


I agree with you in your opinion that the 40hr MFT should yield an exemption of some sort. However, I also accept the fact that my opinion doesn't matter. I cannot explain the ILGA/ISP reasoning on this.

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#103 zigwilly

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:22 AM

I have a question, are we required to use the ISP certificate template? Or can we make our own version of it with logo and such? The reason I ask, we had a student have his cert rejected with the stated reason being "invalid instructor certificate". My instructor is valid, hes on the list, recieved his letter and number and everything. The student took the entire 16 hrs and used the CLIC curriculum # that has been approved for 16 hours. I'm very confused where the problem is. Didnt Ilinois Carry offer their own version of the ISP certificate with a logo on it? Thats all we did but thats the only thing I can think of that could be an issue. Any thoughts?

#104 Molly B.

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:30 AM

Originally the CLIC certificate was required to be submitted along with the ISP cert. Now the ISP wants only their cert submitted.
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#105 zigwilly

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:32 AM

Originally the CLIC certificate was required to be submitted along with the ISP cert. Now the ISP wants only their cert submitted.


Ok, that must be the issue. Thanks Molly!

#106 bobapunk

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:08 AM

I have a question, are we required to use the ISP certificate template? Or can we make our own version of it with logo and such? The reason I ask, we had a student have his cert rejected with the stated reason being "invalid instructor certificate". My instructor is valid, hes on the list, recieved his letter and number and everything. The student took the entire 16 hrs and used the CLIC curriculum # that has been approved for 16 hours. I'm very confused where the problem is. Didnt Ilinois Carry offer their own version of the ISP certificate with a logo on it? Thats all we did but thats the only thing I can think of that could be an issue. Any thoughts?


A. I thought CLIC was only an 8 hour curriculum designed to be used in conjunction with NRA Basic Pistol or similar?
B. I would image that the ISP would like to see their certificate with the app, for uniformity and speed of processing.

#107 Molly B.

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 10:32 AM

A. I thought CLIC was only an 8 hour curriculum designed to be used in conjunction with NRA Basic Pistol or similar?
B. I would image that the ISP would like to see their certificate with the app, for uniformity and speed of processing.


A. Yes, CLIC is designed as an 8 hr. curriclum to be used in conjunction with something like the NRA Basic Pistol. But the modules also includes all the elements of a 16 hr. course and has been approved for up to 16 hrs. Instructors would need to expand the time spent on each element in order to meet ISP regulations and add their own style of live fire drills, to meet the training needs of the specific students in the class.
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#108 TyGuy

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 07:25 PM

Any guidance on which sections to use for 12 hours? Has CLIC been approved for 12?
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#109 Molly B.

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Posted 13 January 2014 - 08:48 PM

CLIC has been approved for 8 up to 16. You would assess your students needs to determine which elements to include - elements 4 and 5 plus live fire are a must.
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#110 jazzemt

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 06:37 PM

Does anyone have a copy of the new certificate that is editable with acrobat? I know there was one of the old style posted that you could type in and check the boxes.

#111 jazzemt

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Posted 31 January 2014 - 06:45 PM

Disreguard my previous post. Adobe had a moment.

#112 safety1stfirearmstraining

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Posted 28 April 2014 - 09:47 PM

according to the Illinois Carry Firearms Instructor Information and Responsibilities

"Illinois State may audit instructors with out notice, " records should include copies of training certificates / Concealed carry licences currently excepted to satisfy the prior training credit submitted by the students"

 which is it ??   certificates?      copy of permit?     or both??        Molly your head is not the only one spinning! :frantics:  

someone please make up my mind!!!!

my point being the approved the illinois hunter safety course does not have a training certificate only a card verifying the student took the course permit if you will

would not an approved out of state permit also be the same ? training was verified by the issuing state and excepted and a permit was issued verifying the same just like the HSC!!

instructors SHALL not MAY except the approved courses! 

any one else see my point??? :headbang1: 


Edited by safety1stfirearmstraining, 28 April 2014 - 10:07 PM.


#113 tloc1969

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Posted 17 May 2016 - 01:02 PM

Instructors need to be doing their 'reasonable' due diligence even if specifics are not spelled out in the IL statute. Common sense means covering your a**. I was doing a training log before it was an ISP requirement....it just made sense. I have a tougher standard across the board and in a worst case scenario [student involved shooting] my student transcripts, methods, application process, pre/post class testing is going to be the difference between a deposition going well and others who will go sideways.

 

I don't know about you all but this does not pay well enough to risk being dragged thru the dirt or indicted for being sloppy or stupid.

 

I point blank tell prospects, if you want an EASY class, rubber stamp class...I am NOT your guy. Attending class does NOT guarantee a certificate. it guarantees the opportunity to EARN one. I've been accused of being rigid, but as an old USAF SP we did things one way and it was RIGHT.

 

I have a secure database that I scan in all the prospects documentation, if ISP shows up I can simply click n copy to a CD or USB. We do an 'unofficial' official practice round of targets at the 3 distances then the official for-the-record qualification...it gives them a trial run after practice [pre-test] then the final test. Also builds a base line of shooters consistency. Also seems to get them to relax a bit and take the pressure off. Then I take a hi-rez pix with my smarty phone and load into students transcript file. The students get a CD with all the info I have at the end and I tell them to keep the 6 targets [3 trial run] [3 qual] in a safe place.

 

Teaching is not my full time gig, but I started shooting at 7... started instructing in '94 and have worked with all types of folks m/w/youth at all levels of knowledge. and never turned out a student who I regret passing/cert. Never had a student cause a grievous accident/incident. I'm kinda proud of that. :)


Edited by tloc1969, 17 May 2016 - 01:13 PM.





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