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IL CCW Trainer Curriculum Questions


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#1 mjw45

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:11 AM

This thread is for questions about Illinois Concealed Carry Instructor (IIC) curriculum applications.
Questions from this thread will be used in an upcoming FAQ and in the IL CCW Trainer Short Guide
Please use other threads for other topics, such as
Fingerprinting for CCI thread
Illinois Concealed Carry Instructor Application Questions.


I'll go ahead with the first question-

What do we put for curriculum name?

Even if we wanted to teach CLIC, we haven't seen a copy yet (I still need to pay), therefore I can't legally testify it satisfying the requirements for training.

So I am submitting my own curriculum for now.

Do I have to come up with a catchy name or can I just put in-
IL CCW 8/16 hour curriculum?

Edited by mjw45, 31 August 2013 - 02:36 PM.

Matt Wehland
Allguntraining.com NRA Firearms Instruction
Kankakee and Will County

#2 xd9subcompact

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:23 AM

I would title it "The heck has finally frozen and pigs are actually flying because IL is actually allowing CCW course"

#3 883sport

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:55 AM

^ :clap:

#4 maxcapp

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 10:57 AM

Yes make up a name.
Jon M. Capp
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#5 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 02:49 PM

I named mine "The Illinois Gun Pros 'From My Cold Dead Fingers' Course" (in my best Charleton Heston voice)....
http://IllinoisGunPros.com
http://facebook.com/...ealedCarryClass
State Certified Concealed Carry Trainer / NRA Certified Instructor
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<a href="https://www.google.c...hor">Google</a>

#6 STR8*SHOT

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 03:34 PM

I beleive that one curriculum application from myself as an instructor/owner of the business will cover my other instructors not having to send this form in, correct?

Thnx - Jerry
Str8Shot Gun Safety

#7 Molly B.

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 04:07 PM

We will submit these questions for answers.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#8 mjw45

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 08:58 PM

Ok I am looking over the Application for Curriculum and the minimum hour requirements are really bothering me.
If Basic Pistol is to count for steps 1-3 and be taught to their hourly schedule they have just strangled me/my teaching style.
2 hours on gun storage/safety?

What the heck is public storage, do we rent a storage facility to keep our guns?

Are there lock boxes like the sheriffs dept has at the jail installed around town some where that I don't know about?

4 hours each for steps 4-5?

Does this mean I have no time to review basic safety rules with the class?
I can't make sure that they know what their dominant eye is?
Review the basics of marksmanship?

What a bad joke, just tell me what I have to teach and let me teach it, I can do a much better job without these artificial limitations.

I think I will take my wife up on her offer to go drink tonight, I feel a headache and ulcer coming on.

Matt
Matt Wehland
Allguntraining.com NRA Firearms Instruction
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#9 maxcapp

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:07 PM

Ok I am looking over the Application for Curriculum and the minimum hour requirements are really bothering me.
If Basic Pistol is to count for steps 1-3 and be taught to their hourly schedule they have just strangled me/my teaching style.
2 hours on gun storage/safety?

What the heck is public storage, do we rent a storage facility to keep our guns?

Are there lock boxes like the sheriffs dept has at the jail installed around town some where that I don't know about?

4 hours each for steps 4-5?

Does this mean I have no time to review basic safety rules with the class?
I can't make sure that they know what their dominant eye is?
Review the basics of marksmanship?

What a bad joke, just tell me what I have to teach and let me teach it, I can do a much better job without these artificial limitations.

I think I will take my wife up on her offer to go drink tonight, I feel a headache and ulcer coming on.

Matt


Matt LOL I thought the same thing. What the heck is Public Storage. I been teaching conceal carry for sometime now and I have been in law enforcement for 15 years. I saw public storage for a civilian conceal carry and thought what the heck is that. So I asked my wife a school teacher what her opinion was. She said carrying a firearm in public, the carrying being storage (holster) , so I did mine concerning that and maybe and office setting. Lock boxes in an office.
Jon M. Capp
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#10 mjw45

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:12 PM

Ok taking a closer look, how do we merge the ISP requirements 1-3 with NRA Basic Pistol?

NRA Basic Pistol-
Lesson I (2hr) Pistol Knowledge and Safe Gun Handling
Lesson II (2hr) Ammunition and Fundamental of Pistol shooting
Lesson III (2hr) Firing the First Shots
Lesson IV (1hr) Scoring Targets and Selecting and maintaining a Pistol
Lesson V (1hr) Continued Opportuniites for Skill Development

ISP-
1. Firearm safety; Minimum 2 hours Classroom
______ a. 4 basic fi rearm handling safety rules
______ b. Home storage
______ c. Vehicle storage
______ d. Public Storage
2. Basic principles of marksmanship; Minimum 3 hours Classroom/Range
______ a. Stance
______ b. Grip
______ c. Sight Alignment
______ d. Sight Picture
______ e. Trigger Control
3. Care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a concealable fi
rearm; Minimum 3 hours Classroom
______ a. Gun identifi cation: revolver, semi-automatic, misc.
______ b. Ammunition identifi cation and selection
______ c. Safety and cleaning protocols
______ d. Cleaning equipment
______ e. Loading and unloading


I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long.

Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time?

What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these?

I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me.

I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum.

Matt
Matt Wehland
Allguntraining.com NRA Firearms Instruction
Kankakee and Will County

#11 Molly B.

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:20 PM

I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long.

Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time?

What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these?

I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me.

I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum.

Matt


Todd is working on this with the ISP and trying to find out what in the world they were thinking with the min. time limits.
Again- rules written by someone totally unfamiliar with the firearm training world and refused input from those who know the topic.

We'll get the kinks worked out.
"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#12 mjw45

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Posted 31 August 2013 - 09:32 PM

I figure this Molly, that is why I think I am just going to submit my instructor app next week and let this curriculum app hang out for a while.
There is no way I can sign a legal form under penalty of perjury when some of the terms don't even make sense or possibly even exist, let alone the time requirements.

I saw your original post yesterday about the ISP posting CCI apps right before heading out for work and took a quick glance then worked through them some more this morning and thought that the ISP had done a decent job.
The more I look into them the more I realize that they have done the normal Illinois job.

Just dropped Todd another note thanking him for all his work, I don't know how he does it, I can barely stand trying to figure my little bit of this out.

Thanks,

Matt
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#13 semper1911

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 06:41 AM

I could be wrong and often am, but I believe the times are a minimum suggestion. I wrestled like many are with the implementation of this then it hit me. The nra basic pistol course satisfies the first 3. The next 8, illini specific is mainly law. The dry fire and live fire can be done on range before qual. Public storage- I am assuming is the "safe harbor" situation, to where you have to clear and secure your firearm in vehicle, again could be wrong. To me the trick is this, how to take someone who has not had nra pistol and implement all the refresher training under eight hours. I think a nra personal protection course will cover this, at toward end bring in the laws, though does have lesson plan for lethal force. I feel your pain as WE know there is a lot of material to cover in short time. But am sure we can make it happen.

#14 Gaius

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 07:48 AM

I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long.

Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time?

What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these?

I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me.

I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum.

Matt


Todd is working on this with the ISP and trying to find out what in the world they were thinking with the min. time limits.
Again- rules written by someone totally unfamiliar with the firearm training world and refused input from those who know the topic.

We'll get the kinks worked out.


Clearly these time limits make no real sense to any of us that have actually trained students. Even if the time limits per section are really "recommendations" they do demonstrate that the people making the recommendations really don't know much about the subject matter.

#15 bobapunk

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:32 AM

Ok I am looking over the Application for Curriculum and the minimum hour requirements are really bothering me.
If Basic Pistol is to count for steps 1-3 and be taught to their hourly schedule they have just strangled me/my teaching style.
2 hours on gun storage/safety?

What the heck is public storage, do we rent a storage facility to keep our guns?

Are there lock boxes like the sheriffs dept has at the jail installed around town some where that I don't know about?

4 hours each for steps 4-5?

Does this mean I have no time to review basic safety rules with the class?
I can't make sure that they know what their dominant eye is?
Review the basics of marksmanship?

What a bad joke, just tell me what I have to teach and let me teach it, I can do a much better job without these artificial limitations.

I think I will take my wife up on her offer to go drink tonight, I feel a headache and ulcer coming on.

Matt


Public storage could cover how to store your CCW in your vehicle if you have to enter a prohibited area...?
That's what I thought of anyway...

#16 mjw45

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:37 AM

Public storage could cover how to store your CCW in your vehicle if you have to enter a prohibited area...?
That's what I thought of anyway...


But Vehicle Storage is already covered.

I'm sure it won't really be a big deal, but it just shows how stupid it was to create this system without the input of the users.

Matt
Matt Wehland
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#17 Tango7

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:38 AM

Public storage could cover how to store your CCW in your vehicle if you have to enter a prohibited area...?
That's what I thought of anyway...


But wouldn't that be vehicle storage?
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#18 bobapunk

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:44 AM

Ok taking a closer look, how do we merge the ISP requirements 1-3 with NRA Basic Pistol?

NRA Basic Pistol-
Lesson I (2hr) Pistol Knowledge and Safe Gun Handling
Lesson II (2hr) Ammunition and Fundamental of Pistol shooting
Lesson III (2hr) Firing the First Shots
Lesson IV (1hr) Scoring Targets and Selecting and maintaining a Pistol
Lesson V (1hr) Continued Opportuniites for Skill Development

ISP-
1. Firearm safety; Minimum 2 hours Classroom
______ a. 4 basic fi rearm handling safety rules
______ b. Home storage
______ c. Vehicle storage
______ d. Public Storage
2. Basic principles of marksmanship; Minimum 3 hours Classroom/Range
______ a. Stance
______ b. Grip
______ c. Sight Alignment
______ d. Sight Picture
______ e. Trigger Control
3. Care, cleaning, loading, and unloading of a concealable fi
rearm; Minimum 3 hours Classroom
______ a. Gun identifi cation: revolver, semi-automatic, misc.
______ b. Ammunition identifi cation and selection
______ c. Safety and cleaning protocols
______ d. Cleaning equipment
______ e. Loading and unloading


I can't see a way to make NRA basic pistol compatible with the ISP time requirements and stay true to the actual NRA curriculum without making the class 10 hours long.

Where in the ISP program can I give the exam, talk about pistol selection, scoring targets etc. and stay true to the NRA class outline unless I add more time?

What about basics of the class, like intro and facilities policies, where in the ISP time limit/section do I put these?

I really don't like the idea of signing a document under the penalty of perjury with questions like these hanging over me.

I'm starting to think I will get my instructor fingerprint/submission done next week and hang back a little on curriculum.

Matt


You guys are looking at this all too closely...

If you teach Basic Pistol, the ISP says the student has satisfied #1 - #3 on their training outline, period.

There is no reason to try to force the 2 classes to match. If you teach BP, the student has satisfied #1 - #3. If you choose to make your own curriculum for the first 8 hrs, the ISP has provided you a class outline.

There is absolutely NO need to try to smash the 2 different options together into one.

It seems like the blinders are on and some are thinking that NRA Basic Pistol is the only way to cover the first 8 hrs when that is simply not the case.

Either teach Basic Pistol and allow your students to then "grandfather" in with 8 prior hrs, or use the ISP's outline to make your own class. Two distinct separate options for you to chose.

#19 Tvandermyde

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:45 AM

writ 'em all up and I will be on them tuesday monring. but be prepared to start beating on you're reps and senators
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#20 bobapunk

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:46 AM

Public storage could cover how to store your CCW in your vehicle if you have to enter a prohibited area...?
That's what I thought of anyway...


But wouldn't that be vehicle storage?

But Vehicle Storage is already covered.

I'm sure it won't really be a big deal, but it just shows how stupid it was to create this system without the input of the users.

Matt


yeah, good point(s)... I need more coffee... :cool:

#21 bobapunk

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 08:56 AM

writ 'em all up and I will be on them tuesday monring. but be prepared to start beating on you're reps and senators


Todd, your work on this has been very important and very appreciated.

However, I humbly ask you not to "pester" the ISP with questions of no consequence. The last thing we need now is to have them stop everything now and start completely over, causing huge delays, simply because people don't understand one or two things.

IE: Definition of the 4 safety rules and "public storage" would be nice to ensure we are compliant. But, these redundant questions about DD-214, Basic Pistol, etc counting for the first 8 hours even if they did not cover everything on the ISPs outline should not be raised. Right now we have options and more freedom. Making the ISP rethink things may result is less.

What would happen if the question "military training/basic pistol/hunter safety did not cover 'vehicle storage/only covered 3 base safety rules/ (or whatever)', so where do we need to add those topics in the second 8 hrs?" Do you think the ISP is going to modify their outline, or could they / would they more simply say that hunter safety / Basic Pistol can not be used to grandfather training hours?

My point is, lets ensure the answers to the questions that we raise have a high probability of moving us in the direction that we want to move; not the direction Colleen Daley wants us to move...

Edited by bobapunk, 01 September 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#22 BIGDEESUL

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 10:45 AM

writ 'em all up and I will be on them tuesday monring. but be prepared to start beating on you're reps and senators


Todd, your work on this has been very important and very appreciated.

However, I humbly ask you not to "pester" the ISP with questions of no consequence. The last thing we need now is to have them stop everything now and start completely over, causing huge delays, simply because people don't understand one or two things.

IE: Definition of the 4 safety rules and "public storage" would be nice to ensure we are compliant. But, these redundant questions about DD-214, Basic Pistol, etc counting for the first 8 hours even if they did not cover everything on the ISPs outline should not be raised. Right now we have options and more freedom. Making the ISP rethink things may result is less.

What would happen if the question "military training/basic pistol/hunter safety did not cover 'vehicle storage/only covered 3 base safety rules/ (or whatever)', so where do we need to add those topics in the second 8 hrs?" Do you think the ISP is going to modify their outline, or could they / would they more simply say that hunter safety / Basic Pistol can not be used to grandfather training hours?

My point is, lets ensure the answers to the questions that we raise have a high probability of moving us in the direction that we want to move; not the direction Colleen Daley wants us to move...


+1.

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Edited by BIGDEESUL, 01 September 2013 - 10:51 AM.

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#23 RacerDave6

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:01 AM

1) Define the public storage
2) Will instructors have to physically keep the B27 qual target, or will it go with the student. If the instructor has to retain it, can we just keep a digital copy (i.e. take a hi res picture of the target)
3) If a company or org submits a curriculum will it cover all their instructors or will each certified instructor need to submit the affidavit?
4) Clarify instructor involvement, if any, in certifying the students grandfathered 8 hrs of training.
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#24 Tvandermyde

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:02 AM

there is a lot to complain about even at this stage. ISP should be renamed Incompetent Stupid People of Illinois.

You guys may be looking at this one dimensional. My job is to look at it in 3D. and I see some major problems looking forward. Just with the trainers/courses not to mention applicants.

My best advise is to take a NRA 8 hour course, basic pistol, PPIH to get that out of the way. they are screwing up the other 8 hours and we are going to have to fight them all the way and the best way looks to be with a new republican governor. and start taking down some hard targets to get what we want.

We are going to have to engage in an asymmetrical battle here on multiple fronts from the local level to the state level. your state reps, senators local PDs, mayor, county people. etc. etc.

this thing is going to get rough so buckle up.
While a 9 mm or .40 caliber bullet may or may not expand, it is an undeniable fact that a .45 caliber bullet will never shrink.

#25 bobapunk

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 11:09 AM

1) Define the public storage
2) Will instructors have to physically keep the B27 qual target, or will it go with the student. If the instructor has to retain it, can we just keep a digital copy (i.e. take a hi res picture of the target)
3) If a company or org submits a curriculum will it cover all their instructors or will each certified instructor need to submit the affidavit?
4) Clarify instructor involvement, if any, in certifying the students grandfathered 8 hrs of training.


These are good and important questions that instructors will need to know.

Also, a list of what prior training will allow an applicant to skip the first 8 hours is also needed.

#26 mjw45

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 12:05 PM

Just some more things to throw out there-

Stop the administration from making up their own set of rules. We fought too hard to have the administration making up rules as they want. If it is not require by law, we are not required to teach it.
ex. Dry firing from holster. I am all for holster work, plan on doing it in my classes, but if it is not required by law it should not be required by the ISP.

-define explicitly 4 rules of gun handling, we know what they should be, but let them list it for us.

-written guideline of vehicle storage. We can all read the law and make up our own list, but since it is called out specifically lets have an administrative ruling on what exactly we should teach. This may sound counter to my question about administration making up their own rules, but this one I think the law does include, I just would like to make sure we all meet the same standard.

-Clarify business name vs individual operator.
Matt Wehland
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Kankakee and Will County

#27 maxcapp

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 01:23 PM

When the curriculum guide came out I thought the same thing you all did. I just wrote my own, will teach from it. However my other instructors permit i may just teach the NRA Basic Pistol class instead on day 1. On day 2 you could teach the other requirements. You would need to issue two different certificates. One for the basic pistol, and the other for the Conceal Carry Class. It is funny the Illinois class resembles something from a law enforcement firearm training class. The dry firing is not recommended on all firearms. So what about that. Just what someone wants to do come out and tear up their firearm. I will design my course of fire as requested by the ISP. However it is going to take longer. If you run short on time with some stuff I would just add group interaction stuff and practicals. I agree with you all this time slots are dumb. It will all come together.
Jon M. Capp
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(Western Illinois Region) Quincy & Hannibal
WWW.NEMOFIREARMTRAINING.COM
(573)795-1249

#28 Glock23

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 02:40 PM

The dry firing is not recommended on all firearms. So what about that. Just what someone wants to do come out and tear up their firearm.

So keep a supply of snap caps on hand for those who bring guns that shouldn't be dry fired.

Or provide them with a trainer pistol to use for that portion.

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#29 maxcapp

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:16 PM

The dry firing is not recommended on all firearms. So what about that. Just what someone wants to do come out and tear up their firearm.

So keep a supply of snap caps on hand for those who bring guns that shouldn't be dry fired.

Or provide them with a trainer pistol to use for that portion.

Great idea, thanks
Jon M. Capp
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#30 Terry 9595

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Posted 01 September 2013 - 03:43 PM

I have 2 questions; How will we be notified that we are clear to start teaching?
And will there be offical forms we use to give to the students that have past the course, or do we just make something up?

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