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Now that recreational pot will be legal what is the threshold for carrying while under the influence?


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#31 Cerus

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 10:18 AM

Second answer: No, the dogs are trained to sniff out more then just pot.


But they cannot tell the handler what exactly they smell nor can they distinguish between a single joint and several pounds.

I was talking to an ISP buddy of mine about this yesterday. He said all the current dogs will have to be retired and new dogs will have to be trained. A hit on pot would/could invalidate the whole search and untraining them for pot would be impossible. They warned them that the cost would be enournous if legalized but they didn’t listen.

#32 Mick G

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 10:46 AM

 

Second answer: No, the dogs are trained to sniff out more then just pot.


But they cannot tell the handler what exactly they smell nor can they distinguish between a single joint and several pounds.

I was talking to an ISP buddy of mine about this yesterday. He said all the current dogs will have to be retired and new dogs will have to be trained. A hit on pot would/could invalidate the whole search and untraining them for pot would be impossible. They warned them that the cost would be enournous if legalized but they didn’t listen.

 

 

Wouldn't you think if the dog hit on anything and it was pot, then at that point the weight rule would come into effect? The 1oz rule for IL residents and the 1/2 oz rule for out of staters. Basically the MM law has been in effect for a while and that hasn't caused retiring of PD dogs. I get your point but really it's already been legal If you had the MM card. The dog hits on something, you have a legal amount of pot BUT you also have some meth/crack/whatever. I just don't see why it would invalidate the dog hitting on the meth/crack/whatever. I would think the SA just wouldn't charge you on the pot charge. Then your attorney would say "Well the dog hit on the pot" to which the SA would say "how would you know what the dog hit on, you had meth/crack/whatever and THAT is what you are charged with".

 

By you I mean the person who has pot/meth/crack/whatever and not you personally.



#33 Cerus

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 11:04 AM

Second answer: No, the dogs are trained to sniff out more then just pot.


But they cannot tell the handler what exactly they smell nor can they distinguish between a single joint and several pounds.
I was talking to an ISP buddy of mine about this yesterday. He said all the current dogs will have to be retired and new dogs will have to be trained. A hit on pot would/could invalidate the whole search and untraining them for pot would be impossible. They warned them that the cost would be enournous if legalized but they didn’t listen.
 
Wouldn't you think if the dog hit on anything and it was pot, then at that point the weight rule would come into effect? The 1oz rule for IL residents and the 1/2 oz rule for out of staters. Basically the MM law has been in effect for a while and that hasn't caused retiring of PD dogs. I get your point but really it's already been legal If you had the MM card. The dog hits on something, you have a legal amount of pot BUT you also have some meth/crack/whatever. I just don't see why it would invalidate the dog hitting on the meth/crack/whatever. I would think the SA just wouldn't charge you on the pot charge. Then your attorney would say "Well the dog hit on the pot" to which the SA would say "how would you know what the dog hit on, you had meth/crack/whatever and THAT is what you are charged with".
 
By you I mean the person who has pot/meth/crack/whatever and not you personally.

I would imagine it’s because it could never be proven what caused the dog to hit. The defense could argue that the dog hit on the legal pot and wouldn’t have hit on the meth or crack. Same way an illegal search invalidates the entire search despite what else was found. Such rules are meant to keep police from going on a fishing expedition and stumbling across a crime.

#34 Mick G

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 11:23 AM

It's definitely a slippery slope. The state would make the argument that the dog is trained to hit on the meth or crack just as it is trained to hit on pot so nobody's 4th amendment rights were violated.



#35 Glock23

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 12:14 PM

Current dogs trained to hit on weed will have to be retired. With MM, a dog could hit, the person could show their MM card, and that would be that. Otherwise decriminalized weed was still illegal, but it was more of a discretionary thing of the officer involved. Once it's "legal," the mere presence of it no longer provides PC to search. The cop would need to be able to see in plain sight an amount he suspected to exceed legal limits. If anyone watches Live PD, they've mentioned this exact situation on there before, speaking with departments in jurisdictions where weed was made "legal." The dogs had to be retired.
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#36 Patriots & Tyrants

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 12:23 PM

Current dogs trained to hit on weed will have to be retired. With MM, a dog could hit, the person could show their MM card, and that would be that. Otherwise decriminalized weed was still illegal, but it was more of a discretionary thing of the officer involved. Once it's "legal," the mere presence of it no longer provides PC to search. The cop would need to be able to see in plain sight an amount he suspected to exceed legal limits. If anyone watches Live PD, they've mentioned this exact situation on there before, speaking with departments in jurisdictions where weed was made "legal." The dogs had to be retired.

 

 

All those poor doggos. Hopefully they find good homes for them.



#37 skinnyb82

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 12:46 PM

The basic premise is that they cannot search a vehicle solely based on lawful conduct. They cannot search a person based on observation of lawful conduct. That'd be like a cop searching your car and/or giving you field sobriety tests solely because you have an unopened case of beer in your back seat in plain view (assuming 21+). No smell of alcohol. No signs of intoxication. No reasonable suspicion. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk

Edited by skinnyb82, 03 June 2019 - 12:47 PM.

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#38 Odinson

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 12:53 PM

 

Also curious about the prohibition on CCL if you have a MM card.  Now that it will be recreational, that should go away.  Unless it has already and I missed it.

What CCL prohibition?

Q If I am a qualifying patient or designated caregiver pursuant to the Compassionate Use of Medical Cannabis Pilot Program Act and hold a valid Medical Cannabis Card, are my Firearms Owners Identification Card and Concealed Carry License still valid?

A Medical marijuana cardholders will not have their FOID or CCL cards revoked, or be denied issuance of a FOID or CCL card, due to their status as a medical marijuana cardholder. Such cards are State-issued, governed by State law, and State law requires that a person's status as a medical marijuana cardholder not result in the denial of any right or privilege.

 

I guess I'm remembering when CCL was first enabled.  Thanks for reminding me (probably you've corrected me on this in the past too...) that the CC laws have changed since first enacted and so far, in our favor.



#39 Cerus

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 01:35 PM

Current dogs trained to hit on weed will have to be retired. With MM, a dog could hit, the person could show their MM card, and that would be that. Otherwise decriminalized weed was still illegal, but it was more of a discretionary thing of the officer involved. Once it's "legal," the mere presence of it no longer provides PC to search. The cop would need to be able to see in plain sight an amount he suspected to exceed legal limits. If anyone watches Live PD, they've mentioned this exact situation on there before, speaking with departments in jurisdictions where weed was made "legal." The dogs had to be retired.

 
 
All those poor doggos. Hopefully they find good homes for them.

I’m sure they will. I’m more concerned about the fact that it takes months if not years to properly train a dog like that and the cost is in the $20-30k range per dog. And guess who foots the bill for that?

#40 raymond963

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 01:54 PM

 

 

All those poor doggos. Hopefully they find good homes for them.

I’m sure they will. I’m more concerned about the fact that it takes months if not years to properly train a dog like that and the cost is in the $20-30k range per dog. And guess who foots the bill for that?

 

 

Maybe Prikzter can sell a few toilets and foot the bill.



#41 Jeffrey

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 01:57 PM

Or all the tax $$ they will collect from the new stoners.


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#42 Patriots & Tyrants

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 02:28 PM

Someone look it up does JB's family own a large stake in any Police-Dog training companies?



#43 BShawn

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 03:52 PM

 

 

Now that recreational pot will be legal what is the threshold for carrying while under the influence? With alcohol you can gage it by the number of drinks but how will CCLers know if they are legally too stoned to carry a weapon?

 
Not that the conceal carry people are a monolithic group, I would have thought that the carry group wouldn't be high on the user list for dope.
In general, probably true... with exception for medical use. The folks here who support mj are typically not users themselves, they're just people who believe in personal freedom.

 

 

^this^

 

I support medical use AND recreational, though I don't use myself! I'm a 100% freedom supporter. I do believe nobody should be able to (lawfully) operate a motor vehicle while intoxicated on any drug or alcohol or combination thereof, but who would we be to tell someone what they can and cannot do in their own house - ESPECIALLY if it's not going to harm anyone else! if someone wants to sit on their couch or porch and smoke a whole pound, then so be it - it harms nobody!

 

Plus, I always hear about the "drunk" who goes home and beats his family! When was the last time you heard of someone getting stoned and beating their family!? Exactly, you don't! Marijuana is so much better than alcohol if not for that reason alone!

 

Just like the private sector. I fully believe as an employer you have every right to demand your employees NOT come to work intoxicated in any way shape or form. But what is it of their business what I do at home on my own time!? So what if Joe wants to spark a fat blunt and watch movies or play video games all weekend, as long as he's here MON morning!


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#44 Mick G

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 05:23 PM

Current dogs trained to hit on weed will have to be retired. With MM, a dog could hit, the person could show their MM card, and that would be that. Otherwise decriminalized weed was still illegal, but it was more of a discretionary thing of the officer involved. Once it's "legal," the mere presence of it no longer provides PC to search. The cop would need to be able to see in plain sight an amount he suspected to exceed legal limits. If anyone watches Live PD, they've mentioned this exact situation on there before, speaking with departments in jurisdictions where weed was made "legal." The dogs had to be retired.

 

On Live PD the cops are usually the ones who smell the pot and then call for the dog. The dog signals and they find an unreal amount of pot/meth in the trunk. Sometimes with the meth they will find an AK. Plus they usually find a scale and a bunch of baggies so they can charge the person with a license plate light out with distribution. The driver will usually have outstanding warrants for no DL and/or drugs. It's quite amazing that people don't even bother to check their lights and yet have a pound of meth and AK in the trunk. The segment ends with them saying "I cant back to prison". I think some of it is whats called "Reality TV".



#45 GSDlady

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 06:13 PM

With regard to the police dogs:

 

We have several that will be hitting the streets next week.  At the time they started their training legalized marijuana looked inevitable so they were taught to "hit" differently on marijuana than other drugs.

 

Most are trained in more than narcotics:  tracking, area searches, cadaver, apprehension.  I would think a department would assess how much they use the dog in each area before just blindly retiring them.  With our dogs they usually retire to live with their handler. 

 

A lot of departments rely on grants and fundraising for their K-9 units.  Cerus is high on his estimate if that was for the initial cost of a K-9.  Now, if we were talking over the lifetime...... 

 

Short article:   https://www.nwherald...-leery/axuvqqm/

 

 

 



#46 Mick G

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 06:28 PM

With regard to the police dogs:

 

We have several that will be hitting the streets next week.  At the time they started their training legalized marijuana looked inevitable so they were taught to "hit" differently on marijuana than other drugs.

 

Most are trained in more than narcotics:  tracking, area searches, cadaver, apprehension.  I would think a department would assess how much they use the dog in each area before just blindly retiring them.  With our dogs they usually retire to live with their handler. 

 

A lot of departments rely on grants and fundraising for their K-9 units.  Cerus is high on his estimate if that was for the initial cost of a K-9.  Now, if we were talking over the lifetime...... 

 

Short article:   https://www.nwherald...-leery/axuvqqm/

 

 

 

 

GSDs are extremely smart and can probably be retrained.

https://drugabuse.co...-off-marijuana/



#47 Mick G

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 06:44 PM

One of my guilty pleasures is "Lone Star Law" on Animal Planet.

Those GSDs are trained to stiff out a fired shotgun shell or rifle brass.

They have a person that said they shot from here but whatever they shot ran before it died.

The dogs find the fired brass and then the Game Wardens know if they are telling the truth.

If they are lying they are in big trouble. On top of fines they can lose their right to hunt for life.

How do I know that GSDs are extremely smart?

One of mine is laying right beside me, b**** stripe and all.



#48 skinnyb82

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 07:03 PM

This should have been done with a ballot measure. Not legislation originating in the senate. Pritzker bragged that Illinois is the first state to do it without the vote of the people. Or some verbiage similar to that. That's not something to be proud of. If as many support near total decriminalization as we read then it shouldn't be a problem. Sent from my VS987 using Tapatalk
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#49 Cerus

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Posted 03 June 2019 - 09:23 PM

With regard to the police dogs:
 
We have several that will be hitting the streets next week.  At the time they started their training legalized marijuana looked inevitable so they were taught to "hit" differently on marijuana than other drugs.
 
Most are trained in more than narcotics:  tracking, area searches, cadaver, apprehension.  I would think a department would assess how much they use the dog in each area before just blindly retiring them.  With our dogs they usually retire to live with their handler. 
 
A lot of departments rely on grants and fundraising for their K-9 units.  Cerus is high on his estimate if that was for the initial cost of a K-9.  Now, if we were talking over the lifetime...... 
 
Short article:   https://www.nwherald...-leery/axuvqqm/


From what I could find that’s the average total cost of the dog plus training. Lines bred specifically for police work run around $8k just for the dog. Then there’s the training, vet care etc. The high end seemed to be for adding a K9 where none existed so costs like the vehicle cage, training aids etc.

Guess it depends on if a department goes with a breeder specializing in K9s or something off Craigslist.

#50 Mick G

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 05:11 AM

 

With regard to the police dogs:
 
We have several that will be hitting the streets next week.  At the time they started their training legalized marijuana looked inevitable so they were taught to "hit" differently on marijuana than other drugs.
 
Most are trained in more than narcotics:  tracking, area searches, cadaver, apprehension.  I would think a department would assess how much they use the dog in each area before just blindly retiring them.  With our dogs they usually retire to live with their handler. 
 
A lot of departments rely on grants and fundraising for their K-9 units.  Cerus is high on his estimate if that was for the initial cost of a K-9.  Now, if we were talking over the lifetime...... 
 
Short article:   https://www.nwherald...-leery/axuvqqm/


From what I could find that’s the average total cost of the dog plus training. Lines bred specifically for police work run around $8k just for the dog. Then there’s the training, vet care etc. The high end seemed to be for adding a K9 where none existed so costs like the vehicle cage, training aids etc.

Guess it depends on if a department goes with a breeder specializing in K9s or something off Craigslist.

 

 

From my link: "Training new dogs or re-training old ones can cost tens of thousands of dollars."

Then there's the fact of the breeder and bloodlines. I did not get my GSDs off of Craigslist.

The breeder that I was put in touch with bred GSDs for police work.

Mine have Belgian bloodlines and were not cheap. Were they bred for police work? No.

Is their mother an ex bomb sniffing dog at ORD? Yes. Their father was a flunk out during training.

8k sounds about right, I took two from a litter and they were significantly cheaper but still $$$$.

They weren't bred to be police K9s but the breeder had more then a few that were.

"Most are trained in more than narcotics: tracking, area searches, cadaver, apprehension."

Police dogs are trained to either be “single purpose” or “dual purpose” service dogs.

Certified location dogs are seldom trained to be dual purpose such as patrol dogs or security dogs.

Each has a specific job that they are trained for. A location dog can be trained to detect multiple things.

A criminal has no idea that the dog barking at them is really a location dog.

To the dog it's all a game and they are rewarded with playing with a "toy".

Before I got my two GSDs three years ago I had a Belgian Malinois.

I believe that the GSD can be retrained to hit differently on MJ.

It's more of the trainers abilities then the dogs intelligence. Basically GSDs are extremely smart.

Smarter then most of my neighbors. My dogs figured out how to get out of a double latched gate.

My neighbors? Not so much. I had to change they way it latched because the dogs figured it out.

The neighbors are more stumped then ever.

BTW: The filter caught me, the word I used above rhymes with witch stripe.



#51 gangrel

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 05:48 AM

Yes I am the one asking the difficult questions which no one can answer.

Yep. That's what it is. Uh-huh...

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#52 GSDlady

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 07:25 AM

 

 

With regard to the police dogs:
 
We have several that will be hitting the streets next week.  At the time they started their training legalized marijuana looked inevitable so they were taught to "hit" differently on marijuana than other drugs.
 
Most are trained in more than narcotics:  tracking, area searches, cadaver, apprehension.  I would think a department would assess how much they use the dog in each area before just blindly retiring them.  With our dogs they usually retire to live with their handler. 
 
A lot of departments rely on grants and fundraising for their K-9 units.  Cerus is high on his estimate if that was for the initial cost of a K-9.  Now, if we were talking over the lifetime...... 
 
Short article:   https://www.nwherald...-leery/axuvqqm/


From what I could find that’s the average total cost of the dog plus training. Lines bred specifically for police work run around $8k just for the dog. Then there’s the training, vet care etc. The high end seemed to be for adding a K9 where none existed so costs like the vehicle cage, training aids etc.

Guess it depends on if a department goes with a breeder specializing in K9s or something off Craigslist.

 

 

From my link: "Training new dogs or re-training old ones can cost tens of thousands of dollars."

Then there's the fact of the breeder and bloodlines. I did not get my GSDs off of Craigslist.

The breeder that I was put in touch with bred GSDs for police work.

Mine have Belgian bloodlines and were not cheap. Were they bred for police work? No.

Is their mother an ex bomb sniffing dog at ORD? Yes. Their father was a flunk out during training.

8k sounds about right, I took two from a litter and they were significantly cheaper but still $$$$.

They weren't bred to be police K9s but the breeder had more then a few that were.

"Most are trained in more than narcotics: tracking, area searches, cadaver, apprehension."

Police dogs are trained to either be “single purpose” or “dual purpose” service dogs.

Certified location dogs are seldom trained to be dual purpose such as patrol dogs or security dogs.

Each has a specific job that they are trained for. A location dog can be trained to detect multiple things.

A criminal has no idea that the dog barking at them is really a location dog.

To the dog it's all a game and they are rewarded with playing with a "toy".

Before I got my two GSDs three years ago I had a Belgian Malinois.

I believe that the GSD can be retrained to hit differently on MJ.

It's more of the trainers abilities then the dogs intelligence. Basically GSDs are extremely smart.

Smarter then most of my neighbors. My dogs figured out how to get out of a double latched gate.

My neighbors? Not so much. I had to change they way it latched because the dogs figured it out.

The neighbors are more stumped then ever.

BTW: The filter caught me, the word I used above rhymes with witch stripe.

 

 

My knowledge of cost & training is not gleaned from some article on the internet.  I have worked for a company for almost 20 years that does the purchasing, initial training (of both K-9 & handler) and then maintains the training of the Police K-9 team.  Before that I trained and deployed narcotics dogs for 10 years for a company that offered that service to private entities.  I also have some GSD breeding experience.

 

Just like anything, there are people out there who will talk a good talk and try to get people to pay more money for something than is necessary.  But yes, the cost can get high especially when starting a brand new K-9 program.  There are many factors that go into the training & cost of training for a police K-9.



#53 Mick G

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 07:38 AM

My knowledge of cost & training is not gleaned from some article on the internet.  I have worked for a company for almost 20 years that does the purchasing, initial training (of both K-9 & handler) and then maintains the training of the Police K-9 team.  Before that I trained and deployed narcotics dogs for 10 years for a company that offered that service to private entities.  I also have some GSD breeding experience.

 

Just like anything, there are people out there who will talk a good talk and try to get people to pay more money for something than is necessary.  But yes, the cost can get high especially when starting a brand new K-9 program.  There are many factors that go into the training & cost of training for a police K-9.

 

https://www.policeon...ing-a-K-9-unit/

 

https://forum.office...to-patrol-ready

 

I hate when the POLICE lie, they are the ones with the K9 units.

 

I actually have a good idea of who you are, we may have spoken in the past.



#54 korgs130

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 08:35 AM

None, pot is still federally illegal and guns are supposed to only be regulated by the federal government (even though they're not).https://www.thecanna...-gun-ban/68075/
It's more then the 4473 form too. You cannot possess and consume marijuana and possess a firearm at the same time.



True

Also curious about the prohibition on CCL if you have a MM card.  Now that it will be recreational, that should go away.  Unless it has already and I missed it.What CCL prohibition?
Q If I am a qualifying patient or designated caregiver pursuant to the Compassionate Use of Medical Cannabis Pilot Program Act and hold a valid Medical Cannabis Card, are my Firearms Owners Identification Card and Concealed Carry License still valid?
A Medical marijuana cardholders will not have their FOID or CCL cards revoked, or be denied issuance of a FOID or CCL card, due to their status as a medical marijuana cardholder. Such cards are State-issued, governed by State law, and State law requires that a person's status as a medical marijuana cardholder not result in the denial of any right or privilege.

Regardless of what the state says or allows, if you consume marijuana, medical or other wise, you are a “prohibited person” and are committing a federal felony if you possess any firearm. Even if that firearm is locked up at home. I’m not saying I agree with the law, because I don’t, but it is the law.



#55 GSDlady

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 08:50 AM

Mick G. -- I am not going to argue over cost of K-9 units.  Like I said, many factors in the cost and the cost can get high.

 

If I want to argue over dog stuff I will go to one of the dog training forums:  "The only thing two dog trainers agree on is that a third trainer is doing everything wrong."

 

Message me if you know who I am.



#56 Jeffrey

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 09:53 AM

None, pot is still federally illegal and guns are supposed to only be regulated by the federal government (even though they're not).
https://www.thecanna...-gun-ban/68075/

It's more then the 4473 form too. You cannot possess and consume marijuana and possess a firearm at the same time.

playing devils advocate:  What if you received a FOID and only purchased privately prior to the changes made to law regarding ISP call ins for private transfers?  Never a mention of any MJ use.


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#57 Euler

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 10:03 AM

playing devils advocate:  What if you received a FOID and only purchased privately prior to the changes made to law regarding ISP call ins for private transfers?  Never a mention of any MJ use.


Federal law prohibits firearm ownership by drug users. Pot counts federally. "Legal" pot is still illegal. The state has simply chosen to defy federal law, which is ironic considering the outrage over sanctuary counties. So states can defy the federal government, but counties are forbidden to defy the state government.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

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#58 Matt B

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 11:32 AM

playing devils advocate:  What if you received a FOID and only purchased privately prior to the changes made to law regarding ISP call ins for private transfers?  Never a mention of any MJ use.Federal law prohibits firearm ownership by drug users. Pot counts federally. "Legal" pot is still illegal. The state has simply chosen to defy federal law, which is ironic considering the outrage over sanctuary counties. So states can defy the federal government, but counties are forbidden to defy the state government.


Yes and if I recall correctly from browsing over the legislation, marijuana dispensaries will be required to electronically scan ids to verify ages of buyers. So a buyers trail could exist that can be matched against firearm owners.


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#59 TURAMBAR

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 11:55 AM

 

playing devils advocate:  What if you received a FOID and only purchased privately prior to the changes made to law regarding ISP call ins for private transfers?  Never a mention of any MJ use.Federal law prohibits firearm ownership by drug users. Pot counts federally. "Legal" pot is still illegal. The state has simply chosen to defy federal law, which is ironic considering the outrage over sanctuary counties. So states can defy the federal government, but counties are forbidden to defy the state government.


Yes and if I recall correctly from browsing over the legislation, marijuana dispensaries will be required to electronically scan ids to verify ages of buyers. So a buyers trail could exist that can be matched against firearm owners.


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Say that's the case. Who would have jurisdiction going after FOID/ CCW holders if their license is scanned after making a pot purchase? The state who now permits legal possession? Probably not. So the Federal government is going to send federal agents to go around and try to confirm a firearm carrier actually purchased, possesses, and used the drug? Not likely. Would be interesting to find out what other recreational states with CCW are doing. 


"The superior man, when resting in safety, does not forget that danger may come. When in a state of security he does not forget the possibility of ruin. When all is orderly, he does not forget that disorder may come. Thus his person is not endangered, and his States and all their clans are preserved."

- Confucius

#60 Euler

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Posted 04 June 2019 - 12:05 PM

... Would be interesting to find out what other recreational states with CCW are doing.


I posted in another thread that Colorado people overwhelmingly just lie on their 4473s. The federal government doesn't require FFLs to administer urine tests to buy a gun. Lying on a 4473 is a felony, but there's no easy way to check.

Colorado still requires CCWs (as they call them) to be drug-free, so if they arrest someone for anything and find drugs and guns, they revoke the CCW, but do not seize the guns.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.





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