sirflyguy Posted October 18, 2014 at 02:49 AM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 02:49 AM Improvements to the NRA firearm training curricula have been steady throughout the years, starting with the development of student handbooks. NRA's handbooks first contained hand-drawn images and have since evolved into black-and-white photographs and, more recently, high-resolution color photos. NRA's course lesson plans have developed similarly, establishing learning objectives and helping instructors with time management. Overhead slides and PowerPoint presentations have allowed students to read information projected on a screen as the instructor taught the material. NRA created a warehouse and distribution system for easy ordering of the materials needed for each course, and NRAInstructors.org has become an exclusive tool for NRA Instructors to market their courses to students and renewing their ratings from the NRA.The next innovation in firearms training is now upon us -- blended learning. The blended learning teaching method combines an e-Learning student interface with instructor training and evaluation. The e-Learning portion will cover the curriculum that is currently being taught from the student handbook, and NRA Instructors will cover the hands-on firearm portions of the course, shooting exercises, the shooting qualification and make the final evaluation of the student.The blended learning method insures that each student receives course information in a consistent manner every time the course is given. In addition, students can now complete the classroom portion at their own pace, on their own schedule. This allows the instructor to focus on student education, safety and skills with a firearm. NRA Instructors will still determine which students have earned their certificates and which students need more training. NRA's goal is to always be the standard when it comes to firearms safety, training and marksmanship. Blended learning is just another step in delivering on that standard.MythI won't be able to schedule my training because students have to complete a separate classroom segment.FactInstructors will still schedule the firearm segment classes but students will now have flexibility to complete the e-Learning classroom segment based on their schedule. Instructors will be able to schedule the firearm segment of each course in two ways. The first is on-demand, as students complete the e-Learning classroom segment. The second is to establish a date for the firearm segment and inform students that they will not be able to complete this without having successfully completed the e-Learning classroom segment in advance. MythStudents who do not have computers or internet access will not be able to get training.FactAccess to computers is widely available at public libraries in both rural and urban centers all over the country. The e-Learning classroom segment of the course will also be available using a mobile device such as a smartphone or a tablet. If the student is still unable to locate a computer, smartphone, or tablet, the instructor could secure access to one of these devices for them. MythThe e-Learning classroom segment cannot be done in a group setting.FactNRA Instructors who want to do so can provide the necessary equipment for each student to complete the e-Learning classroom segment as a group. MythThe e-Learning classroom segment is just a video the students watch.FactThis e-Learning classroom segment is a learning management system that integrates the course content with interactive applications, lecture, animation, and review questions, which culminate in a final examination. The learning management system tracks students' progress throughout the course, records, and missed exam answers. It provides materials for missed questions, and provides the instructor with information about the student before the firearm segment of the course. MythThe blended learning course will be like the current Range Safety Officer course.FactThe basic blended learning courses will be completely different, featuring both e-Learning classroom segment and an Instructor-led training segment. MythStudents who live in states that don't recognize e-Learning classes for concealed carry permits won't be able to get one.FactThis is NOT an e-Learning course, it is a blended learning course. Most states use the technique for delivering Hunter Education and Drivers Education. A live instructor is not required to show students the basic parts of a firearm, but with the blended learning system, a live instructor will ALWAYS have the final say as to when a student passes the basic course. MythI will get fewer students because they have to go through an e-Learning class first.FactThe ability for students to take the e-Learning classroom segment at any time, day or night, weekday or weekend, will increase the pool of students for you to evaluate and instruct. You will no longer need to rent a classroom where you will spend all of your day. MythNRA Instructors will not have the ability to price their own classes or determine if a student passes the course.FactInstructors will still decide on the fee schedule, pre-range process and ultimately issue the NRA certificate. Students will not receive a certificate of completion for the NRA course until the instructor validates the student's knowledge, skills, and attitude. MythStudents will not be prepared for the Instructor-led training portion of the class.FactEven though the student has taken the e-Learning classroom segment already, NRA Instructors will have a process in place to ensure the student meets the standards for the live fire portion. This may include a safety test or shortened classroom review. As always, NRA is relying on NRA Instructors to ensure each student meets the requirements to earn certification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TyGuy Posted October 18, 2014 at 03:07 AM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 03:07 AM Why the heck do I not get these emails? Myth: E-Learning is a substitute for small class sized instructor based learning. Fact: No it's not. I mean I'm no longer a teacher, but I have taught junior high through college. I also stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night. * always right * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoverGunner Posted October 18, 2014 at 04:49 AM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 04:49 AM This is a Money Grab from the NRA . I guess they are not satisfied with money from instructors purchasing the packets . I am sure this will go over well with the ISPI think the NRA just shot themselves in the foot with this as far as Illinois instructors are concerned Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gangrel Posted October 18, 2014 at 09:24 AM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 09:24 AM This is a Money Grab from the NRA . I guess they are not satisfied with money from instructors purchasing the packets . I am sure this will go over well with the ISPI think the NRA just shot themselves in the foot with this as far as Illinois instructors are concernedI keep seeing and hearing people say that, and yet ISP offers 4 hours of credit for Illinois Hunter Safety, which is also offered as an online classroom learning experience coupled with a field day with an instructor. If you are using NRA Basic Pistol plus another course as your full 16 hour CCW curricula, I could see where this would be a problem. However, if you are using NRA Basic Pistol as an 8 hour prior training credit and running an 8 hour Illinois CCW course, I don't think ISP would have much to say about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctman800 Posted October 18, 2014 at 10:14 AM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 10:14 AM Got my e-mail yesterday also. They haven't answered one question many of us have; what is the NRA charges going to be for the on line section. Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3ddiver Posted October 18, 2014 at 01:07 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 01:07 PM Plain and simple money grab from the NRA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallbore Posted October 18, 2014 at 01:35 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 01:35 PM No email yo me.did not say when new progran starts.sounds like not allowing instructors option to do current program.NRA wants students info directly bypassing instructors. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted October 18, 2014 at 02:26 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 02:26 PM Myth Students who do not have computers or internet access will not be able to get training. Fact Access to computers is widely available at public libraries in both rural and urban centers all over the country. The e-Learning classroom segment of the course will also be available using a mobile device such as a smartphone or a tablet. If the student is still unable to locate a computer, smartphone, or tablet, the instructor could secure access to one of these devices for them.. Didn't we have to fight to obtain a "hard copy" FCCL just a few months ago, and it winds up being a long phone call to an ISP rep who essentially does the online portion on your behalf, then send you a paper version to obtain signatures? The person writing their excuses must be the same person ISP hired. Myth The e-Learning classroom segment cannot be done in a group setting. Fact NRA Instructors who want to do so can provide the necessary equipment for each student to complete the e-Learning classroom segment as a group.. Yeah - a room full of faces in monitors really stimulates conversation and questions. Myth Students who live in states that don't recognize e-Learning classes for concealed carry permits won't be able to get one. Fact This is NOT an e-Learning course, it is a blended learning course. Most states use the technique for delivering Hunter Education and Drivers Education. A live instructor is not required to show students the basic parts of a firearm, but with the blended learning system, a live instructor will ALWAYS have the final say as to when a student passes the basic course.. Bravo Sierra. You can call it "Blended learning". You can call it "Distance learning" like they did for the certificate program I attended. You can call it "Technologically advanced program presentation", "Hybrid educational format" or "Mumbo Dogfish on Rye" It is no longer an 8-hour conducted in person class, and Hunter Safety and Driver's Education have not been the bone of contention to the point of a federal lawsuit like CCW has, especially in this {D}imwit paradise. It is a class that is instructed - however partially - without supervision on the internet, and while it might be hunky-dory in Virginia, Idaho, Iowa, Oregon and Wyoming , I can envision several states that will have issues with it. Colorado, for example. And what do you know, who's the single state with a higher application fee than us? You guessed it. Additionally, I can imagine several appointed administrators telling the NRA reps "Sure...no problem" on the phone when they were discussing the plan, but just waiting for the chance to start denying those evil not-yet-realized criminal gun owners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
howie Posted October 18, 2014 at 05:45 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 05:45 PM I don't like it. I think it stinks. Eliminating face time with students is a horrible idea. We use NRA BP for our first 8 hours. Contemplating writing our own curriculum, complete with student handbooks and power point presentations, and leaving the "new" BP in a cloud of dust. Furthermore, IMHO BP as is, is an excellent tool to see who really wants to be in class and who doesn't. Parts of it can be rather dull, and you can tell quickly who is really paying attention. We tell our students up front....if you nod off, aren't paying attention, etc....that's a good way to be asked to leave. We have 16 hours to make a judgement call on a student. This will make that time frame even shorter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallbore Posted October 18, 2014 at 06:25 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 06:25 PM Be nice if they gave us a heads up on the transition period.The email made it clear they did not respects all the instructor teaching abilities. I don't expect them to listen to a any of us, nor email all of us.I just order 25 student packets. Wonder if this is my last order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pipedoc Posted October 18, 2014 at 07:30 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 07:30 PM MythInstructors will still want to make BP part of their IL CCW program FactIt will be easier to just teach there own curriculum instead of trying to adapt this to their program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DoverGunner Posted October 18, 2014 at 07:50 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 07:50 PM MythInstructors will still want to make BP part of their IL CCW program FactIt will be easier to just teach there own curriculum instead of trying to adapt this to their program.This .I am already on it for myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyP Posted October 18, 2014 at 10:47 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 10:47 PM I have a contrary opinion - and like other things everyone has one - lol I did not take the 1st 8hr class - used my DD214 instead - my 8 hours of 'live' training also included watching some videos, NO live fire practice, NO holster drawing practice beyond drawing from the holster for the test firings and IMHO was about 5 hours too long to obtain my little signed paper that allowed me to have to spend an outlandish amount to get my 2nd Amendment riight. My Hoosier relatives enjoy their lifetime permits with no more effort than writing out the check and filling out the form. That is how it 'should' be in this sorry State. There were people in my class that frankly could have used several weeks more training, so there is no perfect world solution. Using modern technology to potentially increase the number of gun owners and then perhaps CCW holders IMHO is a great thing. Kudos to the NRA for trying to keep pace with the rapid changes in home based education. Different people learn at different rates and in different ways. Being able to take a portion of the program in the convenience of one's own home on a person's own unique schedule sounds like a very positive thing to this consumer. Heck-fire, nowadays you can even go to "Traffic School" online. Beats taking time off from work or trying to meet an instructor's schedule along with the rest of life's demands against our 'free time'. I can appreciate that paid instructors have a vested interest in not having any part of said instruction beyond their control and fiscal benefit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted October 18, 2014 at 11:56 PM Share Posted October 18, 2014 at 11:56 PM I can appreciate that paid instructors have a vested interest in not having any part of said instruction beyond their control and fiscal benefit. Ahh, bad, bad capitalism. Should be forced to offer our training, and range and guns and ammo for free? GMAFB. I make about enough money to cover my supplies for the classes I offer with the discounts I usually give to PD, FD... and veterans. Despite the myth, anyone who pays enough to make an instructor rich (like the $500 2 day class I heard about) has nobody to blame but themselves. Pull your head out of your wallet and realize that I - and most of us here - are more concerned with losing the ability to offer our students a nationally recognized training program that can be utilized to exercise our rights outside our lovely people's republic. The NRA BP course fits that profile. As it is taught now. While I have no problem from an availability standpoint with the concept, if enough {D}emagogue antis feel they can sway public opinion, watch them start offering press releases about "internet trained killers" full of hyperbole and supposition, but lacking little things like facts, to ensure the law gets changed. I referenced Colorado before. Are you aware of that? Here are some websites with diverging views for your consideration: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2013/06/21/new-colo-law-strikes-all-online-firearm-training/ http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/06/20/concealed-carry-online_n_3474600.html While Colorado allows some of the training to be online, they didn't require a federal court case to force their overlords to recognize their rights, did they? But facts don't matter when it comes to pushing the agenda. If you've paid attention to the 2A issue in this state you should be aware of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushy223 Posted October 19, 2014 at 12:15 AM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 12:15 AM Accepting all of the NRA's reasons as valid and well-intentioned, the ISP certified FCCL instructor still has a legislatively mandated duty to present 8 hours of in-classroom instruction containing the elements of the basic pistol course. I can see some problems with keeping the full attention of the student. Bushy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallbore Posted October 19, 2014 at 12:21 AM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 12:21 AM Maybe I need to rethink this. This may be the future for our military recruits. Instead of basic training, on line training. The DIs will love this. Right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyP Posted October 19, 2014 at 02:47 PM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 02:47 PM I must be mis-reading the links so graciously provided by Tango7? They appear to me to be discussing the topic of Colorado's all online CCW training courses. I was under the impression that WE were discussing the NRA having a portion of the required 16 hours of CCW training having the possibility of being covered with a partial at-home component and then the balance of training, especially to cover things like firearm handling/safety/shooting/Illinois Law etc. would still be taught in-person by a qualified certified instructor who would still be the final adjudicator of an applicant's ability to apply for a CCW to the State? Am I misinterpreting this thread? If so, then apologies to all. If I am not mis-reading the provided links, then I stand by my OPINION that there is no inherent evil in being able to take an on-line component for a portion of our 16 hour prerequisites. (beyond the inherent 'evil' in our needing to take a course in the first place for a Constitutional Right.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted October 19, 2014 at 04:29 PM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 04:29 PM Am I misinterpreting this thread? If so, then apologies to all. If I am not mis-reading the provided links, then I stand by my OPINION that there is no inherent evil in being able to take an on-line component for a portion of our 16 hour prerequisites. (beyond the inherent 'evil' in our needing to take a course in the first place for a Constitutional Right.) I said nothing about it being inherently evil, nor did anyone else. In my opinion it is less than optimal, and may provide a more standardized, but less in-depth educational experience. I also agree that having to jump through hoops to exercise a right is anathema to my beliefs, and I can see where certain {D}imwits who already despise the fact that they were forced to recognize our RKBA could see this as a way to further cripple the opportunity for others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdiver Posted October 19, 2014 at 05:52 PM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 05:52 PM I must be mis-reading the links so graciously provided by Tango7? They appear to me to be discussing the topic of Colorado's all online CCW training courses. I was under the impression that WE were discussing the NRA having a portion of the required 16 hours of CCW training having the possibility of being covered with a partial at-home component and then the balance of training, especially to cover things like firearm handling/safety/shooting/Illinois Law etc. would still be taught in-person by a qualified certified instructor who would still be the final adjudicator of an applicant's ability to apply for a CCW to the State? Am I misinterpreting this thread? If so, then apologies to all. If I am not mis-reading the provided links, then I stand by my OPINION that there is no inherent evil in being able to take an on-line component for a portion of our 16 hour prerequisites. (beyond the inherent 'evil' in our needing to take a course in the first place for a Constitutional Right.)I dont care the tinyest bit about whether or not it is acceptable to have online training as part of the 16 the state is forcing you to take. This is about TRAINING. It has nothing to do with the FCCL in and of itself . That is a distant second as far as priority lies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdpsc Posted October 19, 2014 at 06:14 PM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 06:14 PM I find myself failing to care. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you are a concealed carry instructor and you put yourself in a position where your ability to teach concealed carry is dependent on a curriculum someone else wrote, you have set yourself up for failure. NRA Basic Pistol is not and never has been about concealed carry. Writing your own curriculum tailored to concealed carry is not rocket surgery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wtr100 Posted October 19, 2014 at 08:02 PM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 08:02 PM Fact - this sucks rocks - but so long as I can get FIRST Steps Materials I don't much care - actually if I can't get them anymore I don't care either student's just won't get NRA Schwag Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rockdiver Posted October 19, 2014 at 08:57 PM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 08:57 PM I find myself failing to care. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you are a concealed carry instructor and you put yourself in a position where your ability to teach concealed carry is dependent on a curriculum someone else wrote, you have set yourself up for failure. NRA Basic Pistol is not and never has been about concealed carry. Writing your own curriculum tailored to concealed carry is not rocket surety.This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smallbore Posted October 19, 2014 at 10:55 PM Share Posted October 19, 2014 at 10:55 PM I liked using the NRA Basic Pistol course becausing I have a lot of new shooters. They need the basics. The NRAs course is good because it had been treaked over the years as well as being put together by professional educators. I like to give credit where credit is due. I suppose I can steal their material then claim as mine.Not everyone is trained and qualified to put together an effective training plan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pdpsc Posted October 20, 2014 at 12:00 AM Share Posted October 20, 2014 at 12:00 AM I liked using the NRA Basic Pistol course becausing I have a lot of new shooters. They need the basics. The NRAs course is good because it had been treaked over the years as well as being put together by professional educators. I like to give credit where credit is due. I suppose I can steal their material then claim as mine. Not everyone is trained and qualified to put together an effective training plan. Simple. Cut out all the shtuff about why people own guns, how to buy a gun, additional training opportunities and the range time involving various action types and bench rest shooting and add in shtuff pertinent to concealed carry and voilà you have your first 8 curriculum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted October 20, 2014 at 03:45 AM Share Posted October 20, 2014 at 03:45 AM I liked using the NRA Basic Pistol course becausing I have a lot of new shooters. They need the basics. The NRAs course is good because it had been treaked over the years as well as being put together by professional educators. I like to give credit where credit is due. I suppose I can steal their material then claim as mine.Not everyone is trained and qualified to put together an effective training plan.Simple. Cut out all the shtuff about why people own guns, how to buy a gun, additional training opportunities and the range time involving various action types and bench rest shooting and add in shtuff pertinent to concealed carry and voilà you have your first 8 curriculum.There are a number of rather good curricula from LE training boards in other states that are less paranoid than ours that show the NRA roots of the material but cull the extras like competitive shooting, single action and why to buy. IIRC I found a half dozen in less than 5 minutes Googling. The biggest advantage the NRA course had was it's near universal acceptance, but if the NRA wants to abandon that in search of mor participants... it's their baby. If they want to abandon it, I guess they can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sctman800 Posted October 20, 2014 at 09:49 AM Share Posted October 20, 2014 at 09:49 AM ^^^^^ Personal opinion; I don't tink they want more participants, the deal is more money. Jim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FSA Posted October 20, 2014 at 10:22 AM Share Posted October 20, 2014 at 10:22 AM I find myself failing to care. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you are a concealed carry instructor and you put yourself in a position where your ability to teach concealed carry is dependent on a curriculum someone else wrote, you have set yourself up for failure. NRA Basic Pistol is not and never has been about concealed carry. Writing your own curriculum tailored to concealed carry is not rocket surgery.+1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AJR Posted October 20, 2014 at 03:33 PM Share Posted October 20, 2014 at 03:33 PM I find myself failing to care. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you are a concealed carry instructor and you put yourself in a position where your ability to teach concealed carry is dependent on a curriculum someone else wrote, you have set yourself up for failure. NRA Basic Pistol is not and never has been about concealed carry. Writing your own curriculum tailored to concealed carry is not rocket surgery.+1 Online learning is second learning at best. It will never beat first hand experience. This stresses even more, that follow up training is critical to uncover what you don't know. --You just don't know, what you don't know, until you learn something new.-- $ Plus, if they keep this up and expand this, where will my money for more classes for me come from? $ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted October 20, 2014 at 03:36 PM Share Posted October 20, 2014 at 03:36 PM ^^^^^ Personal opinion; I don't tink they want more participants, the deal is more money. Jim. Agreed/ Participants=revenue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tango7 Posted October 20, 2014 at 04:07 PM Share Posted October 20, 2014 at 04:07 PM Some online manuals. Most are intended for LE use and many include longarms. While we are not teaching to that standard or audience it might give folks some new ideas.http://www.bsis.ca.gov/forms_pubs/firearms_manual.pdfWA state changed their format - see the attachment https://wilenet.org/html/leosa/wis-course-approved.pdf Found a source for the Illinois 40-hour Mandatory Firearms Training manual here http://www.cole.state.la.us/programs/uploads/2009_pre_academy_manual.pdf https://www.flrules.org/gateway/readRefFile.asp?refId=4112&filename=FITM%20-%201.2014%20-%20%20VERSION%20SUBMITTED%20FOR%20RULE%20ADOPTION.pdf http://www.mlefiaa.org/files/MPTC_NEWS/Recruit_Firearms_version_1.3.pdfWA LE Handgun Instruction level_i_section_10_manual_revision.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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