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Looking for Private or Public Backstop (range or farm or whatever)


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#1 Jacksinthe

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:48 AM

For the wife. She's been training with me at home and should have her CCL in a few weeks. I would like to step up her training from dry practice, laser target practice to live fire.

She is very good at drawing from concealment and with safety manipulation at a decent clip and I will.be taking her for proper instruction on more advanced skills like shooting while moving, seated, in a vehicle, controlled rapid fire at the range (I wouldn't mess with her) etc.

Once she has a few slower paced runs I'd like to make it a point to train regularly at least every other range session with defensive shooting. Currently I go a few times per year out of state to a friend's place and train on his farm for a weekend but I'd like to keep up the training - particularly on the move shooting, from retention, etc. You can practice drawing with a laserlyte but that only goes so far at the house.

Anyone know of any ranges or offers from private land owners for training? We make our own targets and if private would pay to use the land to train, clean up and invest in some dummies for the land owner.

I feel one of the largest drawbacks to carry is that there are so few places to actually train in defensive shooting and do it safely. I've been training with weapons for a few decades (martial arts) and I can tell you it was a trip drawing a real blade that could run me through for the first time after training for months with a dull blade. I had the same feeling when I started with pistols. Lots of months of dry practice and then starting slow again with live practice. This is her first time and I feel she's ready. She has a lot of control which is good.

I want her to take classes first so she can go through the motions in a group but afterwards I'd like to train every other month. We go to the range once a month and dry practice at home with drawing and shooting daily. We will skip a day here and there of dry practice because everyone needs a reset but I'm happy with how she has progressed in skill and in safety precautions. Too many folks get too comfortable and she's not falling in that trap so I think she's ready for some more advanced classes :)

So I'm just curious where would be good places to visit where you can set your own targets, shoot on the move, etc. Again, not super often but often enough to supplement dry practice. We live in Will county, Frankfort area.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. She will be attending some TriggerFarm training, probably yearly. Heck I still visit my old teachers yearly to brush up on fundamentals.

Thanks all.

#2 Jacksinthe

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:31 AM

Weird. Can't edit post.

I'll add I'm not interested in YouTube antics. More interested in shooting on the move 7y and in and engaging multiple targets (1, 2, 3).

#3 InterestedBystander

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 07:44 AM

Weird. Can't edit post.

Supporting members can edit their posts ($25/yr), otherwise there is a short window to edit...something like 5 or 10 minutes.
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#4 spanishjames

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:01 AM

This topic came up recently, and is being discussed here:
http://illinoiscarry...topic=65199&hl=
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#5 Jacksinthe

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 09:18 AM

This topic came up recently, and is being discussed here:
http://illinoiscarry...topic=65199&hl=

Oh I know where she can go for training. But I'm not looking for classes and instructors as we know where to find them. I'm looking for places where you can set up you own targets and practice, not so much classroom/group like instruction. She's definitely going to those classes first, but the rest of the year you still need to keep up with those drills.

I've seen folks not on their own land shoot in mini pit-style ranges where you setup your own targets and run drills without a "firing line" because you are alone or with a training partner in what are cubicle style "lanes". There's a firing direction for backstop, but you are free to move and fire from any distance, retention, etc.

#6 Lou

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:32 PM

You didn't say where you live but the Aurora Sportsmans Club in Waterman has multiple outdoor ranges where you can set up targets and practice drawing from the holster and shooting and moving. The ranges go out to 600 yds.

It is a membership club and not the cheapest but it offers more options than anywhere Ive see.
It also a family membership so your wife is a member for no additional cost. In effect, the price is half of what it looks like.


There is an orientation every month where you can qualify and join. I think one is this Sunday.
One note, there is a cap on membership and at the rate people are signing up the club will reach its max before year's end. http://www.aurorasc.org/

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#7 kster

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 01:37 PM

take live fire defensive pistol classes.   i took class with Rocco and the location he uses has a good 30ft tall sand pile backstop.   http://www.blackflagtraining.com/

 

 

the problem with "private" shooting land is usually insurance.  if you were to have an incident, the landowner would be open to much more than the measly money you'd be giving them for the shooting session.


Edited by kster, 21 March 2017 - 01:39 PM.


#8 Jacksinthe

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Posted 21 March 2017 - 06:19 PM

You didn't say where you live but the Aurora Sportsmans Club in Waterman has multiple outdoor ranges where you can set up targets and practice drawing from the holster and shooting and moving. The ranges go out to 600 yds.

It is a membership club and not the cheapest but it offers more options than anywhere Ive see.
It also a family membership so your wife is a member for no additional cost. In effect, the price is half of what it looks like.


There is an orientation every month where you can qualify and join. I think one is this Sunday.
One note, there is a cap on membership and at the rate people are signing up the club will reach its max before year's end. http://www.aurorasc.org/

If I would be able to go enough through the year I would for the price but I can't justify it at the current time.

take live fire defensive pistol classes.   i took class with Rocco and the location he uses has a good 30ft tall sand pile backstop.   http://www.blackflagtraining.com/
 
 
the problem with "private" shooting land is usually insurance.  if you were to have an incident, the landowner would be open to much more than the measly money you'd be giving them for the shooting session.

Yup. We already planned dedicated classes for her to learn at an easy pace with live fire. Just looking for ranges which at least allow multiple targets and shooting on the move. Well aware of liability (which is why 90% of ranges are lane only).

Was just looking for some options other than buying my own 2nd property ha!

#9 DD123

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Posted 22 March 2017 - 04:50 PM

Unless you find someone who is going to allow a stranger to shoot on their property, your options are extremely limited.  Just the liability would be enough for me to not even offer my land for someone to shoot on.  

 

The only options that I know of are Aurora Sportsmans Club as Lou outlined above, and that's pretty much it.  

 

Keep in mind that most public ranges have rules that are set to the lowest common denominator so no drawing from the holster, and no moving while shooting.  

 

The only other options are actual competitive matches like USPSA, or IDPA.  I would lean more towards recommending IDPA since the equipment requirements are more along the lines of what you and your wife may already have so you won't need to spend extra, except for maybe mag pouches.  USPSA is great, but you'll need to spend money on a rig (belt system w/holster and mag pouches).  The other thing about IDPA is that it's more suited towards "self defense scenarios" and they're typically pretty low round count matches.  USPSA matches will have you shooting 150-200 rounds per match.  Either one of these competitive sports will drastically improve your shooting abilities.  I don't shoot IDPA but it's good for concealed carry skills development and from what I've seen seems fun for someone starting out.  

 

Aside from the above, I don't know what else to really mention.  


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If Democrats quit shooting people, "gun violence" would go down by 80%.......

 

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#10 Jacksinthe

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 08:37 AM

I know most ranges won't allow drawing, moving, etc - it's why I made this thread, for alternative sites.

Competition is good but it still doesn't allow repetition for autonomic response building. I can't just practice taking a slow draw and firing from retention over and over in a match.

They are great tests of skill but poor builders of programming. In martial arts, competition wasn't where we learned new skills, it's where we tested deployment of them. Just looking for places like the Aurora club that might be closer to home and not as pricey.

#11 DD123

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Posted 23 March 2017 - 09:01 AM

I know most ranges won't allow drawing, moving, etc - it's why I made this thread, for alternative sites.

Competition is good but it still doesn't allow repetition for autonomic response building. I can't just practice taking a slow draw and firing from retention over and over in a match.

They are great tests of skill but poor builders of programming. In martial arts, competition wasn't where we learned new skills, it's where we tested deployment of them. Just looking for places like the Aurora club that might be closer to home and not as pricey.

Those skills are developed in dry fire.  You test them either out on a range that will allow you to do those things, or shoot in a match to test them.  

 

Testing drawing and shooting skills without practicing them at home doing dry fire may not result in what you're hoping for.  There are countless videos of people shooting themselves on the draw because they didn't repetitively practice at home.  I don't know for sure if they didn't practice, but seeing their draw stroke pretty much tells me everything I need to know.  

 

If you want a great dry fire book, check out Ben Stoegers Dry Fire Reloaded.  While it's more geared towards USPSA, the fundamentals are the same.  Hope this helps.  


Force and intimidation are the tools of tyrants.  - Ron Paul

 

If Democrats quit shooting people, "gun violence" would go down by 80%.......

 

Taxation is theft

 

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson


#12 Jacksinthe

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 06:49 AM

I know most ranges won't allow drawing, moving, etc - it's why I made this thread, for alternative sites.
Competition is good but it still doesn't allow repetition for autonomic response building. I can't just practice taking a slow draw and firing from retention over and over in a match.
They are great tests of skill but poor builders of programming. In martial arts, competition wasn't where we learned new skills, it's where we tested deployment of them. Just looking for places like the Aurora club that might be closer to home and not as pricey.

Those skills are developed in dry fire.  You test them either out on a range that will allow you to do those things, or shoot in a match to test them.  
 
Testing drawing and shooting skills without practicing them at home doing dry fire may not result in what you're hoping for.  There are countless videos of people shooting themselves on the draw because they didn't repetitively practice at home.  I don't know for sure if they didn't practice, but seeing their draw stroke pretty much tells me everything I need to know.  
 
If you want a great dry fire book, check out Ben Stoegers Dry Fire Reloaded.  While it's more geared towards USPSA, the fundamentals are the same.  Hope this helps.
Not to sound like a jerk, but you should really read my OP. Very well versed in dry practice training.

The biggest hurdle, which I even mention in the OP, is the transition from dry to live and starting slow all over again.

It's hard to build repetitive follow up shot behaviour with dry practice and not actually feeling the changes in recoil management, air pressure, noise, etc when shooting from retention multiple rounds vs shooting at a range with arms outward.

There is no proper follow up shot training, recoil impulse, muzzle control while moving with dry practice. You can't unless you build a gun that mimics the mechanical characteristics of live fire without racking the slide every time.

It's good to do supplement dry practice with live practice.

She's already sub second from concealment dry and she can lock that first shot easy. She practices retention, seated, grounded, compromised and off hand among the usual one handed manipulation. It's a whole new ball game live, though. I'm impressed with her ability, tbh.

She is going to take proper instruction live but I'm still interested in the ability to practice live fire supplementation of practical shooting without a classroom setting.

That's pretty much it. At the very least shooting while moving. Dry vs live are very different experiences. I feel she's ready for some serious live training.

#13 DD123

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 07:49 AM

 

 

I know most ranges won't allow drawing, moving, etc - it's why I made this thread, for alternative sites.
Competition is good but it still doesn't allow repetition for autonomic response building. I can't just practice taking a slow draw and firing from retention over and over in a match.
They are great tests of skill but poor builders of programming. In martial arts, competition wasn't where we learned new skills, it's where we tested deployment of them. Just looking for places like the Aurora club that might be closer to home and not as pricey.

Those skills are developed in dry fire.  You test them either out on a range that will allow you to do those things, or shoot in a match to test them.  
 
Testing drawing and shooting skills without practicing them at home doing dry fire may not result in what you're hoping for.  There are countless videos of people shooting themselves on the draw because they didn't repetitively practice at home.  I don't know for sure if they didn't practice, but seeing their draw stroke pretty much tells me everything I need to know.  
 
If you want a great dry fire book, check out Ben Stoegers Dry Fire Reloaded.  While it's more geared towards USPSA, the fundamentals are the same.  Hope this helps.
Not to sound like a jerk, but you should really read my OP. Very well versed in dry practice training.

The biggest hurdle, which I even mention in the OP, is the transition from dry to live and starting slow all over again.

It's hard to build repetitive follow up shot behaviour with dry practice and not actually feeling the changes in recoil management, air pressure, noise, etc when shooting from retention multiple rounds vs shooting at a range with arms outward.

There is no proper follow up shot training, recoil impulse, muzzle control while moving with dry practice. You can't unless you build a gun that mimics the mechanical characteristics of live fire without racking the slide every time.

It's good to do supplement dry practice with live practice.

She's already sub second from concealment dry and she can lock that first shot easy. She practices retention, seated, grounded, compromised and off hand among the usual one handed manipulation. It's a whole new ball game live, though. I'm impressed with her ability, tbh.

She is going to take proper instruction live but I'm still interested in the ability to practice live fire supplementation of practical shooting without a classroom setting.

That's pretty much it. At the very least shooting while moving. Dry vs live are very different experiences. I feel she's ready for some serious live training.

 

Just responding to your last comment.  Reread your last comment.  

 

Also you've brought up martial arts.  I spent 12 years in martial arts during my early teens into my early 20's.  Practicing strikes and kata (dry fire), were tested in sparring (competitive matches even if they were just in the dojo).  Most of our practice wasn't striking a bag, it was striking air mostly and bag work was 20% of our total work.  So bag work could be equated to live fire.  

 

Also, something made me curious....how are you measuring a sub second draw?  Are you measuring it from hands relaxed at sides or in surrender, drawing from concealment, getting sights on target and then breaking the shot?  And that's sub second?  Because most folks can only do sub second times with an OWB holster without a cover garment.  There are only a few I've seen who can do a sub second draw, and these are people that have been shooting for years.  Getting the gun out of the holster in under a second is meaningless if it takes another half second to get the sights aligned and break the shot.  

 

You've asked for options for what you want to do, and people have given you them.  I provided you with the most realistic options that are available to you.  You obviously don't know anyone with land to shoot on, otherwise you wouldn't be asking here.  Don't feel bad, because I don't know anyone with land to shoot on either, but I know that they more than likely aren't going to let me use it without them at least being present, and even then they may shy away from it for the same reasons I would.....liability.  Now if you were to find someone gracious enough to let you use their land, you're going to be driving 2+ hours to do so.  If competitive matches aren't going to do anything for you, then ASC is the only option.  The good thing is that one membership will cover you both.....since spouses are covered under the same membership.  

 

You're not the first person to ask if someone has land that they could shoot on, and the result of their asking is the same as what you're seeing here.  I'm not trying to sound like a jerk either, but this is the reality, and if you don't want realistic options, cool I'll just move along.  


Force and intimidation are the tools of tyrants.  - Ron Paul

 

If Democrats quit shooting people, "gun violence" would go down by 80%.......

 

Taxation is theft

 

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson


#14 spanishjames

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 08:29 AM

Snap Caps. Dry fire. Repeat.
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#15 Jacksinthe

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:07 PM

@DD123

Oh I'm looking for realistic options, yes, and I appreciate the mentions of ASC - but that's not the only range in Illinois so I'm hoping someone has an alternative.

 

As for dry fire practice - I am new here, but neither of us are new, in general. As for the wife, she's been shooting longer than I've known her (met her in 2001) and she can hit things fast at 25 yards out - she's not a new shooter but will be a new shooter for CCL - which is why she wants to dive into practical shooting. She does everything dry that she's supposed to so the repeated HOW to train is going nowhere and quite rude, I will add.

 

Let's stop assuming she's new. That's rude as all get out. No need for internet instructional posts - she's fine, trust me. Now on places to shoot -

 

This is what I kept on asking, each taken from a different post of mine here, to drive this point:

 

OP: "So I'm just curious where would be good places to visit where you can set your own targets, shoot on the move, etc. Again, not super often but often enough to supplement dry practice."

(note right there I suggest live fire as SUPPLEMENTATION TO dry practice and not as a main form of training in my original post - which went unread, i guess)

#5: "I'm looking for places where you can set up you own targets and practice, not so much classroom/group like instruction."

#8: "Just looking for ranges which at least allow multiple targets and shooting on the move."

#10: "I know most ranges won't allow drawing, moving, etc - it's why I made this thread, for alternative sites."

&: "Just looking for places like the Aurora club that might be closer to home and not as pricey."

 

I'm not sure how dry practice is the answer to any of those or ASC being repeated helps. I'm just looking for options on places to shoot. Not sure how that keeps getting missed?

 

As for sub-second timing at home:

 

Computer

Webcam

Laserlyte

http://shootoffapp.com/

 

Drills, timed holster drill, random start, BEEP, draw + fire, laser hits target, DING, the time elapsed between the BEEP and the laser being seen by the webcam = par time (8" plate at 5 yards) - not too shabby, IMO. Mind you, the webcam sits at 33mhz refresh and her best time is an 0.93 from appendix. Which i think is pretty good for appendix. Super Lightning fast for concealment on hip - yes, not so much appendix. I'll go as far as saying that's easy to reach with daily dry reps. Much more difficult to go further as the progression is not linear but I feel she can.

 

She didn't just start doing this when she applied for her CCL and I really REALLY don't appreciate everyone's assumptions. I think the biggest misconception here is that people see a new poster and think "new shooter" - it's annoying and shows how people perceive women shooters, as well. So I'd appreciate it if people focused on PLACES instead of repeatedly telling me to tell her to do the same things she's been doing daily for months on end, thanks.

 

So i'm looking for other suggestions besides the ruled out ASC. If that is literally the ONLY option in Northern Illinois then so be it and that's fine - but maybe someone knows of others?

 

That's literally it. There's really nothing to this whole thread other than places that allow you to practically shoot that don't require an arm and a leg fee to join when, realistically, neither one of us will be able to attend often enough to justify the price. She doesn't need to be told how to train from folks who assume her skill level because I ask for locations to shoot. Seriously, that's extremely rude. 

 

She's fine.

 

Trust me.

 

She's fine.

 

Just looking for ranges and folks to stop being rude because "A woman shooter! She must be new!". I'd really appreciate it.



#16 RandyP

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 04:51 PM

How fast can she shoot that big chip on your shoulder? Crikey mate. folks are just trying to aid and assist a newbie without suggesting things that could injure a stranger.

 

Other than pricey (too rich for my blood anyway) PRIVATE shooting clubs Northern Illinois is NOT mid-Montana where the private and public lands go on for empty miles and miles. these parts are mostly paved.

 

I have access to my Hoosier brother's backyard range on his 10 acres in Amish country. But it's 2-1/2 hours away and he doesn't let non-relatives on it.



#17 Jacksinthe

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 05:06 PM

How fast can she shoot that big chip on your shoulder? Crikey mate. folks are just trying to aid and assist a newbie without suggesting things that could injure a stranger.

 

Other than pricey (too rich for my blood anyway) PRIVATE shooting clubs Northern Illinois is NOT mid-Montana where the private and public lands go on for empty miles and miles. these parts are mostly paved.

 

I have access to my Hoosier brother's backyard range on his 10 acres in Amish country. But it's 2-1/2 hours away and he doesn't let non-relatives on it.

It's absolutely not a chip on my shoulder. I explained the situation at the get-go in the OP but continue to get condescension by way of constantly being told to dry fire which I already covered in the OP, that live fire should not be the main course of training despite me saying it's a supplement to dry practice in the OP, get told I never said where I lived despite me saying where I lived in the OP, get told to take her to get training despite making it clear that i want her to go to classes BEFORE looking for ranges to shoot at in the OP - etc, etc, etc

 

Nobody is reading anything. EVERYTHING was already covered in my OP. People are literally telling me to tell her to do things she's already doing or will be doing, which I've already covered.

 

That's unhelpful and the constant condescension with responses that don't answer my question of PLACES but rather the typical "forum instructor post" etiquette is quite tiring. It's rude and unhelpful. She don't need training aids or how-to's from the internet, she needs places to train to get comfy and, as stated, attending a class a few times per year doesn't exactly help with "muscle memory" for that autonomic response she's looking for - repetition does.

 

So, no, that's not a chip. That's me rolling my eyes faster than my wife can draw at the myriad of posts ;)

 

If it's a range that you go to publicly, nobody here needs worry about injury - that's on the range. So how about we stop judging my wife and assuming she doesn't know what she's doing when, again, i've outlined it in the OP she's more than capable and probably more than capable of 99% of men out there, especially here judging by the surprise at a sub-second draw :o

 

I get that men think they must coddle women but let's knock that off. It's not helping.


Edited by Jacksinthe, 24 March 2017 - 05:06 PM.


#18 Lou

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Posted 24 March 2017 - 09:37 PM

I gave you a good solution. In my experience it's the one place that will fit your requirements.
Yea, it's expensive but as I pointed out it's a family membership at ASC so it's really half price for you and your wife.

If what you want is too expensive or too far maybe it's time to adjust your expectations.

Demanding perfection in an imperfect world is a recipe for disappointment.

People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf. -  George Orwell

A gun is like a parachute. If you need one, and don't have one, you'll probably never need one again. 


#19 upland1911

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 05:43 AM

My suggestion is this: Find the schedule for idpa, etc. And contact the hosting clubs directly. You will find out what's available with much less drama Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#20 Jacksinthe

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 06:25 AM

I gave you a good solution. In my experience it's the one place that will fit your requirements.
Yea, it's expensive but as I pointed out it's a family membership at ASC so it's really half price for you and your wife.

If what you want is too expensive or too far maybe it's time to adjust your expectations.

Demanding perfection in an imperfect world is a recipe for disappointment.

Oh you were the only one that actually gave me a legit response of where to shoot and not some internet-instructor-drive-by training tips.

 

I wasn't asking for perfection, i wasn't asking for training tips, suggestions or how-to's, I asked for locations to shoot, which you provided. I was just looking for more options.

 

You were fine in suggesting ASC. There's a few other clubs (quite a few) so I was hoping by asking blindly and not about a specific club I would be getting better answers based on experience and less by hearsay about a certain club if I ask for it by specific name. That usually works as people tend to default to experience before word of mouth but I think the whole "wife" thing threw everyone off so everyone's brains defaulted to "she should train at home" because she's probably some fragile flower that thinks a Daisy Red Ryder has too much recoil.

 

I don't see a forum for "ranges" here so I figured the Training forum would be the best bet, but I think that the usual internet L is still being held with people not reading the OP buy constantly suggesting things I've covered in my original post and trying to tell me how to tell my wife how to train.

 

I hope you understand the repeated instructional posts which blatantly ignored my OP did kinda rub me the wrong way over and over and over. It's like being on an auto forum and asking where i can find shift forks and synchro sleeves for an MT-82 and being told to watch videos on how to change oil and rotate tires because surely one wouldn't know how to work on manual transmissions. It's condescending.

 

You were fine, even if you didn't read where I'm from in my OP ;) At least you gave an answer I was looking for.

 

My suggestion is this: Find the schedule for idpa, etc. And contact the hosting clubs directly. You will find out what's available with much less drama Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Good suggestion but as I considered earlier, it's hard to build a body's response without repetition and she knows this (as far as follow up shots, getting back on target from recoil impulse and muzzle rise, etc). If my bud didn't move out of state a couple years back she would be running drills with us but she hadn't considered carry, at that point. Now that he's a bit of a drive away and I've got years of doing it under my belt I only drive out to hang a few times per year which is enough as the rest of the year I train daily at home with the occasional range visit once per month for paper shooting and so does she. She's just never shot live fire from seated, on her back, retention, compressed ready, etc. She trains for it all, but wants to make sure she can experience it on a regular basis as an addendum to her conditioning at home. There's a difference in sound, air pressure changes, recoil impulse, etc that she wants to understand. This way she can take things slow, see how it feels, make adjustments for efficiency, etc, then bring those home to work on, then go back every so often to live fire to stress test and see how she's coming along.



#21 RandyP

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 07:02 AM

Should you locate a nearby, low cost, few restrictions outdoor range? Please post your findings. There are doubtless many folks who would jump at the opportunity.



#22 DD123

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 09:15 AM

This turned into an askhole thread.  

 

I didn't make any assumptions of her or you.  I simply offered advice, and you chose to ask a question, then when none provided were acceptable to you, it quickly became apparent that you were an askhole.  What is an askhole?  It's someone who asks a question, then argues with everyone that offers advice.  

 

Carry on dude.  Good luck finding whatever it is that you're looking for in a state where few options exist to do what you're looking to do.  Particularly if you live in the northeaster quadrant of the state.  


Edited by DD123, 25 March 2017 - 09:19 AM.

Force and intimidation are the tools of tyrants.  - Ron Paul

 

If Democrats quit shooting people, "gun violence" would go down by 80%.......

 

Taxation is theft

 

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson


#23 spanishjames

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Posted 25 March 2017 - 10:35 AM

Should you locate a nearby, low cost, few restrictions outdoor range? Please post your findings. There are doubtless many folks who would jump at the opportunity.


+1
TRUMP 2016!

#24 Jacksinthe

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 09:49 AM

This turned into an askhole thread.  
 
I didn't make any assumptions of her or you.  I simply offered advice, and you chose to ask a question, then when none provided were acceptable to you, it quickly became apparent that you were an askhole.  What is an askhole?  It's someone who asks a question, then argues with everyone that offers advice.  
 
Carry on dude.  Good luck finding whatever it is that you're looking for in a state where few options exist to do what you're looking to do.  Particularly if you live in the northeaster quadrant of the state.

You're right. I'm looking for places to shoot and people start giving me training tips. That's not what I'm looking for.

You should probably take note I didn't get chaffed at suggestions of ranges, just the usual "I'm an expert, you need training and this is how you should do it" posts.

This isn't an askhole thread, this is a "let's ignore the question and pretend OP is a noob who has never trained" or "Trust me, I'm an expert, OP" thread.

I don't need to be told how to train nor the wife, just looking for places to shoot. It would behoove you to understand the difference and see how people didn't even read my OP but just gave knee jerk responses to either the thread title or a sentence or two. I have people telling me I never said things I said in the OP but somehow I'm the jerk for telling people I got it and read the OP.

Sure, sure. Whatever you say!

#25 DD123

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:37 AM

 

This turned into an askhole thread.  
 
I didn't make any assumptions of her or you.  I simply offered advice, and you chose to ask a question, then when none provided were acceptable to you, it quickly became apparent that you were an askhole.  What is an askhole?  It's someone who asks a question, then argues with everyone that offers advice.  
 
Carry on dude.  Good luck finding whatever it is that you're looking for in a state where few options exist to do what you're looking to do.  Particularly if you live in the northeaster quadrant of the state.

You're right. I'm looking for places to shoot and people start giving me training tips. That's not what I'm looking for.

You should probably take note I didn't get chaffed at suggestions of ranges, just the usual "I'm an expert, you need training and this is how you should do it" posts.

This isn't an askhole thread, this is a "let's ignore the question and pretend OP is a noob who has never trained" or "Trust me, I'm an expert, OP" thread.

I don't need to be told how to train nor the wife, just looking for places to shoot. It would behoove you to understand the difference and see how people didn't even read my OP but just gave knee jerk responses to either the thread title or a sentence or two. I have people telling me I never said things I said in the OP but somehow I'm the jerk for telling people I got it and read the OP.

Sure, sure. Whatever you say!

 

I wasn't going to reply, because I already suspect and have inferred something about this thread, but here goes anyway.  

 

You're calling me an "expert", but where have I claimed that I am one?  You also went on to say this turned into a "let's ignore the question and pretend the OP is a noob".  How you arrived at that must have been learned from common core.  That's quite the logical (illogical) jump.  

 

So to sum up my comments and your responses:  

 

1.  I mentioned ASC as THE ONLY club with open membership that will allow you to do what you're looking to do.  

 

2.  As an alternative to joining as most people can't see spending the money that ASC charges, I also offered two competitive sports that will at least get you some live draws under pressure.  

 

3.  You came back with "meh" ASC is too expensive and competitive shooting doesn't allow you to build automated responses.  

 

4.  So to someone who specifically practices to build automated responses, I said that's what dry fire is for, and seeing as you already do dry fire,  even offered you a lead on a book I've found helpful for dry fire to liven yours up.  

 

5.  You also mentioned martial arts, which I had a great deal of experience in, when I was younger (from age 12 to 25).  You used that as an example of building automated response.  So here's how martial arts equates to shooting:

     a.  Practicing strikes and kata ingrains the "automated response" (dry fire)

     b.  Bag work only made up 10-15%% of the total training and this was with a strike heavy martial art (live fire)

     c.  Actual sparring made up 5-10% of the total work.  (competitive matches)

 

6.  Again, where did I claim to be an expert?  Can you show me?  

 

7.  I did see and read your OP before my first comment.  It seems you have expectations of what you want to do that aren't well thought out.  My comments were trying to reinforce that what you're already doing is doing what you want to do in order to ingrain those "automated responses".  

 

Can you explain how practicing a draw and firing an actual round somehow builds "automated response" somehow better than dry fire?  You're drawing a gun, aiming, and pulling a trigger.  The only thing different is that with life fire you're now dealing with noise, and recoil.  Both important to learn to deal with no doubt, but your own replies seem to think that live fire is better than dry fire.  

 

Seeing as your only realistic option is ASC, and that you discounted that, then the only option is to shoot IDPA or something along those lines to get that training.  You know, you don't have to shoot a competitive match with "winning" as the goal.  You can just show up and treat it as a proving ground for what you've been practicing.  The value of shooting IDPA is that you get the ability to test what you've been practicing using live ammo.  You also get the added pressure of being under a timer, and having 15 other people watching you.  While that doesn't mimic an adrenaline dump, it will get you uncomfortable, which if you don't experience adrenaline dumps that often, is what an adrenaline dump feels like.  

 

With someone like me who's shot competitively for only a year, it would surprise me to believe that I would go and call myself an expert.  I've shared what has worked for me.  Even though I'm a member of ASC, I don't have the opportunity to go out there to practice regularly because I have a job that requires a lot of hours of my time (60+) every week, which means I have less time on the weekends to go out there.  Factor in a match on a Sunday, and that only leaves Saturday to run errands, or do something else that I spend my time on, or that I deem worthy of my time.  So what does one do in my situation?  I dry fire every night.  If I had a match on a Sunday, that means that I wouldn't have time on a Saturday to go out to ASC to practice.  So instead, I'd dry fire.  I shot almost every Sunday last summer.  That means I was barely out at ASC practicing, yet through dry fire, I somehow managed to perform fat better at matches than I should have during the first year.  That all transferred over into my carry skill building.  

 

In any case, my time is valuable to me, and to waste it on someone who automatically believes that somewhere you've claimed to be an expert, and you haven't.  

 

The funny thing is that a few minutes ago before I started writing this reply, I had my cousin who stopped by read this thread and give his impressions.  He doesn't know who I am on here, and quite frankly isn't even a member on here.  His perception of your comments and mine didn't seem to align with your perception of my comments.  I suspect most others would perceive it the same.  

 

So again, your options are:

 

1.  ASC 

2.  IDPA or USPSA

3.  Somehow finding someone to let you use their land

4.  Something that doesn't exist.  

 

I'm an "expert" LOL.  An expert at learning maybe.  My hope is that you'll read this, then reread our exchange without assuming anything about me, as I didn't assume anything about you, and was responding to your replies.  If you still come back #triggered, then I'm done here.  


Force and intimidation are the tools of tyrants.  - Ron Paul

 

If Democrats quit shooting people, "gun violence" would go down by 80%.......

 

Taxation is theft

 

"Experience hath shewn, that even under the best forms of government those entrusted with power have, in time, and by slow operations, perverted it into tyranny" - Thomas Jefferson


#26 Jacksinthe

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 02:39 PM

Dude, for the love of any god you believe in, I'll explain this again:

 

3) Should I have praised the idea of ASC if I found it more expensive for the frequency my wife would like to augment her training with? Of course I'm going to answer fairly indifferently seeing as how there is a place within driving distance but it's too pricey to justify the cost of only going every few months.

 

4) Didn't ask for that info. We are well versed in dry practice, thanks. (step 1 of internet "expert" is assuming someone needs more practice or is doing it wrong to begin with - get there, man)

 

5) See number 4 - we are very well versed in our dry practice training. (step 2 is continuing the internet "expert" posts by assuming the person you are answering doesn't know what they are doing - are you there yet?)

 

6) See 4 and 5

 

7) Internet "expert" again. Dry practice daily. Daily. She just got a new Shield in december. Has just a hair less than 1k live rounds through the weapon - clocked 15k+ dry fires since during training (that's just her newest gun - we keep count with laserlyte strikes) in various scenarios from drawing, retention, close ready, seated, grounded, blah blah blah. Also said she will go to an actual class a few times to go through all of these same motions with live fire - even explained how the physiology of firing live is different vs dry.

 

Dude, you can't be that friggin' blind, right? I mean nobody can be, right? Do you not see what you've been saying and how many times I was like "no dude we are good, just looking for PLACES to shoot".

 

If all you EVER did was dry fire - how on earth would you ever know if your grip was true? If your weapons POA was true? Follow up shots? Controlling the muzzle rise, being able to adequately absorb the recoil impulse by your torso, etc? Understand the physiological and psychological changes that occur with LOUD BANG, air pressure change, the weapon in your hands moving from force, etc. Would you ever really know? No. You wouldn't. Just like you'd have no clue what it feels like to hit a human being or be hit by a human being in martial arts. Bags and shadow boxing only go so far. That's why we train, spar, that's why we compete. To test what we train in force on force situations because that's an entirely different battle - not just physically, but mentally. That's why taking a few classes is great because it allows for going through those motions you've been training with in dry practice with live fire. That's why going back every few months to make sure your skills are still up by understanding what happens when you shoot from a compressed ready, make sure your grip is true, aim is true, on the ground, seated, etc. It's not training as much as it is testing what you've been practicing so you can make sure you are training correctly and understand what you need to do.

 

I'm honestly not going to go beyond the above. I've read all the suggestions of PLACES to shoot - if they don't fit my bill then that's fine.

 

I NEVER ONCE got on anyone for suggesting a PLACE. For playing internet expert? Sure. But that's what you get when you make assumptions about people and spout training tactics when they weren't asked for. Maybe that's how you've been treated or you're insecure a little bit, no clue. But it's not cool, guy. Not cool at all. This is literally a case of - i'm not asking for anyone's advice on training - I'd just like places to shoot. If such a simple concept eludes you - it's best you don't say anything or risk sounding like the typical internet "expert" forum goer who thinks people need what they aren't asking for and has to spout training advice. I guarantee the wife can out-shoot 99% of people here even without ever drawing from a holster live or grounded or whatever. She will be fine and doesn't need your advice, man. She doesn't so stop giving it. She just wants to take a few classes which we KNOW already where she is going and a place to follow up a few times per year to put her training through the paces to make sure she's progressing fine.

 

Peace.


Edited by Jacksinthe, 26 March 2017 - 02:51 PM.


#27 WitchDoctor

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 10:44 PM

  Sir, DD123 is a solid dude and I think you are not seeing the bigger picture here which is demonstrated by your responses to his suggestions. I know DD123 from a few back and forth PM's. I cannot entirely vouch for him, but do know he loves  to compete and works hard at being the best he can be with what limited time he has.

  The gentlemen is only trying to help you with what he has seriously thought might improve your situation. I do not believe he posts without thinking as evidenced by some of the other threads I have read where he has added his ideas.

  With the above being said I think you owe that man an apology and maybe take a moment in the penalty box until you learn that we are all here to help each other with the twisted subject in regard to carrying concealed weapons in Illinois.

  Please reconsider your approach to interacting with those that attempt to offer help as it is always done in the spirit of camraderie and brotherhood. In my eyes he went out of his way to offer a myriad of things that might help you and none of them worked. You also seemed to go over and above to make sure you were not appreciative of his advice.

Truly a shame....

WD


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#28 Hipshot Percussion

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Posted 26 March 2017 - 11:27 PM

Well this thread certainly got out of hand in a hurry :)

 

Jacks, I'm with Witch Doctor on this one.  I have been here three years and in that time I've come to know DD123 as someone whose posts are well thought out, well written and knowledgeable - never condescending or derisive, unless provoked.   My view on the course of this thread is that you went from 0-60 in about 1.2 seconds.  To put it bluntly, I think you are out of line.

 

But hey, that's just me.

 

Take care Jacks and I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

JMHO


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#29 thobart

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 01:15 AM

Let me help explain a bit more.  This is me really trying to answer your questions.

 

Here is the deal.  Most places will not let you just go and shoot.  If they allow people to shoot they generally do not allow them to draw.  IF they allow you to draw and shoot they generally do not allow you to shot very fast.  This is why ASC keeps coming up because it is the only club with open membership at the moment in the area that allows the things you want to do.  There is one more alternative in that I have been told that Article II allows holster draws on Wednesday.  I have not done it have not seen it but have been told by reliable people this is true.

 

Another alternative that is possible is to go to Excels skills and drills classes.  They generally charge you for range time and run you through competitive shooting type drills.  I understand that this may not fit your bill but again is the only place outside of expensive classes or expensive clubs to do at least some of what you want to do. 

 

Another expensive option is to join Alpha Range it is much more than ASC charges more of family but has the advantage of two indoor 25ft ranges and lots of targets to choose from.

 

The reason you are getting grief about the responses is because DD123 is an experienced competitive shooter.  I am even a more experienced competitive shooter who also has taken many many hours of defensive gun handling training.  He is aware that you can build all of the skill sets you are talking about via the correct method of dry fire training.  Live fire is the test of what you have learned in dry fire not the other way around.  Your responses are a bit over the top to someone who is only trying to give you the information you asked for.  Since both of us know most of the local clubs, training facilities, trainers and competitive shooters in the area we pretty much know what we speak of.

 

Also a sub 1 second draw from concealment with a good hit would be on par with a USPSA master class shooter.  So I am personally very skeptical cause if she shoots like that she could as a women make a living at it. If she is able to shoot on the move and has good transition times between targets.  The only thing not covered in competitive shooting vs tactical shooting is the tactics, retention and gun protection.  After that they are much the same skill set as shooting fast and accurate is required in both.

 

We are not assuming you are a noob why do you think we are?



#30 Cerus

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Posted 27 March 2017 - 10:34 AM

Should you locate a nearby, low cost, few restrictions outdoor range? Please post your findings. There are doubtless many folks who would jump at the opportunity.


+2

Jack - the above pretty much answers your entire thread. I don't know why you're getting pissy with the answers you've gotten. They're valid responses....just not the ones you want. Many have looked for a public or private piece of land to shoot on and have come up empty. Why? Because people aren't going to let random strangers shoot on their land. That's just the way it is.

Stop getting so defensive to the suggestion of dry fire practice. People could have stayed silent and let your thread go unanswered ya know. What you want doesn't exist. Simple as that. The next best thing is dry fire and range time. Is it exactly the same? No - but does it need to be? I'm all for taking your training as far as it will go but come on - you're coming off like if your wife can't do this kind of training then she'll be gunned down at any moment.

Your criteria are too restrictive and unreasonable. You want cheap, easy access and no restrictions. Good luck finding it up there.




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