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#1 vito

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:13 AM

I often walk my dog at the nearby community college bike path, and obviously cannot legally carry a concealed firearm as this is all school property. I was wondering what Illinois law says about carrying an expandable baton. If just as illegal as a gun there would be no point in carrying one of these, but if a baton is legal, then I might consider getting one. Lately I have been carrying a small Mace sprayer but having a baton as well seems to make sense if legal. Any specific recommendations as well? I don't think I want to spend the big bucks on an Asp baton since it is not something I will be routinely using, but not sure if some no-name brand is almost worse than nothing at all. 


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#2 luckydawg13

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:20 AM

before we had CC i always walked my dog and carried a stout walking stick  


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#3 vito

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 10:31 AM

I wonder if the law looks differently at an expandable baton than it does at a walking stick. I tried to look it up online but couldn't find anything about batons. 


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#4 papa

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 11:31 AM

I don't know how the law would look at it but have you ever been hit with an old solid car radio antenna . One of those would make a great dog deterrent and could also change a persons mind about needing to be near you.



#5 Thiokol

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 11:45 AM

Here's the law:

 

llinois Expandable Baton Laws

720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)

Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:

(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club, sand-bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or

 

(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

 

I openly carry an expandable baton when I walk my dogs because there are a lot of coyotes in my area. I asked the local animal control officer and my neighbor who was the deputy police chief and they said using it to ward off an attacking animal is perfectly acceptable, but that's the extent of using the baton legally.


Edited by Thiokol, 17 February 2018 - 11:47 AM.

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#6 stage1

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 12:13 PM

Here's the law:

 

llinois Expandable Baton Laws

720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)

Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:

(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club, sand-bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or

 

(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

 

I openly carry an expandable baton when I walk my dogs because there are a lot of coyotes in my area. I asked the local animal control officer and my neighbor who was the deputy police chief and they said using it to ward off an attacking animal is perfectly acceptable, but that's the extent of using the baton legally.

It is a UUW to carry or possess.  It is a bludgeon.   Notice the "or" highlighted in Red.  No intent is needed. 



#7 Thiokol

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 12:24 PM

 

Here's the law:

 

llinois Expandable Baton Laws

720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)

Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:

(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club, sand-bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or

 

(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

 

I openly carry an expandable baton when I walk my dogs because there are a lot of coyotes in my area. I asked the local animal control officer and my neighbor who was the deputy police chief and they said using it to ward off an attacking animal is perfectly acceptable, but that's the extent of using the baton legally.

It is a UUW to carry or possess.  It is a bludgeon.   Notice the "or" highlighted in Red.  No intent is needed. 

 

 

Did you miss this: Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, or are you simply more knowledgeable than our local Deputy Chief of Police?


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#8 stage1

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 12:38 PM

 

 

Here's the law:

 

llinois Expandable Baton Laws

720 ILCS 5/24-1) (from Ch. 38, par. 24-1)

Sec. 24-1. Unlawful Use of Weapons.
(a) A person commits the offense of unlawful use of weapons when he knowingly:

(1) Sells, manufactures, purchases, possesses or carries any bludgeon, black-jack, slung-shot, sand-club, sand-bag, metal knuckles or other knuckle weapon regardless of its composition, throwing star, or any knife, commonly referred to as a switchblade knife, which has a blade that opens automatically by hand pressure applied to a button, spring or other device in the handle of the knife, or a ballistic knife, which is a device that propels a knifelike blade as a projectile by means of a coil spring, elastic material or compressed gas; or

 

(2) Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, a dagger, dirk, billy, dangerous knife, razor, stiletto, broken bottle or other piece of glass, stun gun or taser or any other dangerous or deadly weapon or instrument of like character; or

 

I openly carry an expandable baton when I walk my dogs because there are a lot of coyotes in my area. I asked the local animal control officer and my neighbor who was the deputy police chief and they said using it to ward off an attacking animal is perfectly acceptable, but that's the extent of using the baton legally.

It is a UUW to carry or possess.  It is a bludgeon.   Notice the "or" highlighted in Red.  No intent is needed. 

 

 

Did you miss this: Carries or possesses with intent to use the same unlawfully against another, or are you simply more knowledgeable than our local Deputy Chief of Police?

 

Did u miss the word "or" that I highlighted in Red.  I'm not going to get into a pissing match.  Deputy Chief not a guarantee of expertise.   Are you an attorney?



#9 Frank

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:11 PM

I think the relevant section of the UUW statute you are looking for is here:

 

 

(13) Carries or possesses on or about his or her person while in a building occupied by a unit of government, a billy club, other weapon of like character, or other instrument of like character intended for use as a weapon. For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man-made material.

 

The expandable baton you are talking about would fall under the definition of "billy club" above. Since it is a billy club by definition, it would not be a bludgeon. As long as you are not carrying it in a government building (local, state, or federal) you wouldn't be in violation of this section.

 

There are a lot of expandable batons out there. Many of them are cheap imitations. I would recommend an ASP brand baton. I would also recommend finding some training on its use. Keep in mind that police and security officers are trained to use this type of weapon in a non-lethal manner. However, in the wrong hands it can most certainly become a deadly weapon. 

 

 

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#10 Thiokol

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:29 PM

I think the relevant section of the UUW statute you are looking for is here:

 

 

(13) Carries or possesses on or about his or her person while in a building occupied by a unit of government, a billy club, other weapon of like character, or other instrument of like character intended for use as a weapon. For the purposes of this Section, "billy club" means a short stick or club commonly carried by police officers which is either telescopic or constructed of a solid piece of wood or other man-made material.

 

The expandable baton you are talking about would fall under the definition of "billy club" above. Since it is a billy club by definition, it would not be a bludgeon. As long as you are not carrying it in a government building (local, state, or federal) you wouldn't be in violation of this section.

 

There are a lot of expandable batons out there. Many of them are cheap imitations. I would recommend an ASP brand baton. I would also recommend finding some training on its use. Keep in mind that police and security officers are trained to use this type of weapon in a non-lethal manner. However, in the wrong hands it can most certainly become a deadly weapon. 

 

 

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Well golly gee! It looks like our Deputy Chief of Police was right after all.


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#11 vito

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:30 PM

Thanks for the advice. I’m not sure where I could get training, but could practice on my own. There are some good videos online. The ASP seems to the top of the line. I did see a S&W 16 inch model for $35 that looked reasonable.

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#12 Frank

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:38 PM

Thanks for the advice. I’m not sure where I could get training, but could practice on my own. There are some good videos online. The ASP seems to the top of the line. I did see a S&W 16 inch model for $35 that looked reasonable.

 

Outside law enforcement/security, there probably isn't a lot of training available to civilians. Most of the training involves identifying target areas, whether they are likely to cause death or great bodily harm, or not. There is some technique to delivering strikes effectively. Monadnock and ASP are two of the most popular training models out there.

 

Good luck and stay safe.

 

 

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Edited by Frank, 17 February 2018 - 02:47 PM.

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#13 Thiokol

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 02:38 PM

Thanks for the advice. I’m not sure where I could get training, but could practice on my own. There are some good videos online. The ASP seems to the top of the line. I did see a S&W 16 inch model for $35 that looked reasonable.

 

Don't waste your money on the S&W. Get the ASP. I got mine here: https://www.lapolicegear.com/asps.html


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#14 stage1

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:05 PM

 

Thanks for the advice. I’m not sure where I could get training, but could practice on my own. There are some good videos online. The ASP seems to the top of the line. I did see a S&W 16 inch model for $35 that looked reasonable.

 

Don't waste your money on the S&W. Get the ASP. I got mine here: https://www.lapolicegear.com/asps.html

 

Ok, I guess I was wrong.  Which model billy do you recommend buying? :-)



#15 mic6010

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:10 PM

Maybe I'm understanding this wrong, but aren't all bike paths, sidewalks and streets considered a public right of way ?

 

(430 ILCS 66/65)
    Sec. 65. Prohibited areas.

© A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law.


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#16 Thiokol

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 03:09 PM

 

 

Thanks for the advice. I’m not sure where I could get training, but could practice on my own. There are some good videos online. The ASP seems to the top of the line. I did see a S&W 16 inch model for $35 that looked reasonable.

 

Don't waste your money on the S&W. Get the ASP. I got mine here: https://www.lapolicegear.com/asps.html

 

Ok, I guess I was wrong.  Which model billy do you recommend buying? :-)

 

 

I have this one: https://www.lapolice...26in-baton.html

 

IMG_0261.jpg

 

IMG_0262.jpg


Edited by Thiokol, 17 February 2018 - 03:16 PM.

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#17 Frank

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 04:08 PM

I use the 21" model.


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#18 jerry52

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 05:45 PM

Google kabar tdi cane carry anywhere .heavey aluminum cane shorten with pipe cutter,will solve all your problems with critters 2 and 4 leg

#19 InterestedBystander

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:05 PM

Thanks for the advice. I’m not sure where I could get training, but could practice on my own. There are some good videos online. The ASP seems to the top of the line. I did see a S&W 16 inch model for $35 that looked reasonable.

 
Don't waste your money on the S&W. Get the ASP. I got mine here: https://www.lapolicegear.com/asps.html

Picked up a genuine ASP at a local gun show a while back but most of what I see there now are the cheap knock offs.
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#20 ragsbo

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:15 PM

I would go with the walking cane myself, like the extra reach it gives you. But it can also give the vermin the idea you might be an easy target.



#21 Tolak

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Posted 17 February 2018 - 08:28 PM

Some years back, when I was involved with the martial arts with a more able body & was working some of the stick fighting arts.  While for working out you're using bamboo based sticks they hurt like a mother, any harder material, such as the mentioned ASP's, would just intensify that.  Knowing my age, and where my body was heading hardwood canes came to mind.  It's an innocent old timer piece of gear; we limp, we have to walk, at times need a cane.  Solid wood, with an enlarged crook, along with a handy point at the end of that crook makes for a fine defensive weapon for anyone with training in the stick arts.  From a small site I found a dozen years back they have a pretty good page now.  http://www.canemasters.com/  If you go to any honest martial arts outfit that does arnis, kali, any of that, and as an honest man tell them what your intentions are they will be more than happy to work with you.  Many will go out of their way to assure techniques work properly.  What court would prosecute an old fart limping along with his old cane, that was due to circumstances pressed to use that as a defensive weapon?  



#22 ScottFM

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 02:53 AM

I often walk my dog at the nearby community college bike path, and obviously cannot legally carry a concealed firearm as this is all school property.

I am confused by your statement. 

 

430 ILCS 66/65 Prohibited Areas. (a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into: (1) Any building, real property, and parking area under the control of a public or private elementary or secondary school. Does not apply because a Community College is NOT public or private elementary (k-8th grade) or secondary (9-12th grade IOW HS) school. 

 

Section 13: [(13) Any public park, athletic area, or athletic facility under the control of a municipality or park district, provided nothing in this Section shall prohibit a licensee from carrying a concealed firearm while on a trail or bikeway if only a portion of the trail or bikeway includes a public park.] excludes the bike path. 

 

So why is it "obvious" you cannot carry? Help me out. 

Has this specific community college established a no carry policy on their property in accordance with section:

 

(a-5) Nothing in this Act shall prohibit a public or private community college, college, or university from: (1) prohibiting persons from carrying a firearm within a vehicle owned, leased, or controlled by the college or university; (2) developing resolutions, regulations, or policies regarding student, employee, or visitor misconduct and discipline, including suspension and expulsion; (3) developing resolutions, regulations, or policies regarding the storage or maintenance of firearms, which must include designated areas where persons can park vehicles that carry firearms; and (4) permitting the carrying or use of firearms for the purpose of instruction and curriculum of officially recognized programs, including but not limited to military science and law enforcement training programs, or in any designated area used for hunting purposes or target shooting.

 

And most specifically if this path is only touching an area and is public right away then a lot of the rules still allow you to carry. 

 

© A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law.

 

So I am not seeing the 'obvious' conclusion you have made. I would be carrying if I so desired based on what you wrote. 


Edited by ScottFM, 18 February 2018 - 02:56 AM.

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#23 SiliconSorcerer

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:49 AM

Unless there are signs along the path (and I've seen walking/bike paths with signs) you are good to go. 


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#24 vito

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 08:59 AM

Since the bike path is totally within the grounds of the community college, i.e., it does not pass through the college and on to a public road, I just assumed that I could not carry. But now that I think about it, there are no posted "No Guns" signs anywhere except on the doors of the buildings of the college themselves. There are no postings at the roads that enter the college grounds and none along the bike path at all. Maybe all this time I could have been legally carrying and made a false assumption. And truthfully, I would much prefer to just carry my concealed handgun than to try to learn a new skill like using a baton. At 74 and with various ailments a baton was not my first choice but only an alternative to a pocket knife. Once again I am benefiting by the good advice on this forum. 


Edited by vito, 18 February 2018 - 09:00 AM.

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#25 gangrel

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Posted 18 February 2018 - 10:09 AM


I often walk my dog at the nearby community college bike path, and obviously cannot legally carry a concealed firearm as this is all school property.


I am confused by your statement. 
 
430 ILCS 66/65 Prohibited Areas. (a) A licensee under this Act shall not knowingly carry a firearm on or into: (1) Any building, real property, and parking area under the control of a public or private elementary or secondary school. Does not apply because a Community College is NOT public or private elementary (k-8th grade) or secondary (9-12th grade IOW HS) school. 
 
Section 13: [(13) Any public park, athletic area, or athletic facility under the control of a municipality or park district, provided nothing in this Section shall prohibit a licensee from carrying a concealed firearm while on a trail or bikeway if only a portion of the trail or bikeway includes a public park.] excludes the bike path. 
 
So why is it "obvious" you cannot carry? Help me out. 
Has this specific community college established a no carry policy on their property in accordance with section:
 
(a-5) Nothing in this Act shall prohibit a public or private community college, college, or university from: (1) prohibiting persons from carrying a firearm within a vehicle owned, leased, or controlled by the college or university; (2) developing resolutions, regulations, or policies regarding student, employee, or visitor misconduct and discipline, including suspension and expulsion; (3) developing resolutions, regulations, or policies regarding the storage or maintenance of firearms, which must include designated areas where persons can park vehicles that carry firearms; and (4) permitting the carrying or use of firearms for the purpose of instruction and curriculum of officially recognized programs, including but not limited to military science and law enforcement training programs, or in any designated area used for hunting purposes or target shooting.
 
And most specifically if this path is only touching an area and is public right away then a lot of the rules still allow you to carry. 
 
© A licensee shall not be in violation of this Section while he or she is traveling along a public right of way that touches or crosses any of the premises under subsection (a), (a-5), or (a-10) of this Section if the concealed firearm is carried on his or her person in accordance with the provisions of this Act or is being transported in a vehicle by the licensee in accordance with all other applicable provisions of law.
 
So I am not seeing the 'obvious' conclusion you have made. I would be carrying if I so desired based on what you wrote. 

Colleges and universities are #15 on the prohibited places list. They are not public parks, so the bike path exemption does not apply. That leaves the question of whether or not the bike path is a public right of way.

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#26 vito

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 08:21 AM

Reading the rules for IL on Handgunlaw.com again ("(15) Any building, classroom, laboratory, medical clinic, hospital, artistic venue, athletic venue, entertainment venue, officially recognized university-related organization property, whether owned or leased, and any real property, including parking areas, sidewalks, and common areas under the control of a public or private community college, college, or university.") I am back to thinking that this bike path, totally inside the property of the community college, is a prohibited area. It appears that the word "sidewalks" puts the path into a banned area. 


Edited by vito, 19 February 2018 - 08:22 AM.

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#27 quackersmacker

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Posted 19 February 2018 - 09:27 AM

For USCCA members, there's a 5 page feature article called "Baton Basics" at page 94 of the February/March 2018 issue of Concealed Carry magazine.  Sorry, I couldn't find a link.


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