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Instructor Audit - What I learned today


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#1 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:07 PM

The audit procedure was straightforward.  They asked me for copies of my student rosters and my curriculum.  After a few questions about the structure of my classes (where, time, procedures, housekeeping stuff), they then had me talking for 95% of the hour long interview.  I think that they want to ensure that instructors know their curriculum and are hitting all the main points.

 

The big takeaway is that they asked me to tell other instructors with whom I come in contact three things:

 

1) Ensure you are using only NRA B-27 targets.

2) Tell your students not to post certificates on social media, as they can be counterfeited.

3) Ensure that each 8 hour class has 8 hours of actual instruction. Lunch does NOT count!  This is a big one.

 

All in all, it was a pleasant experience.  Nothing at all what I had worried about when the word "audit" was thrown out!  If your curriculum covers everything, you know your stuff and your rosters are in order, nothing to worry about.


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#2 OrlandInstructor

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:08 PM

Thank you for the update.

#3 Brownshoe

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:24 PM

They asked me for copies of my student rosters ...


Thank you for the update. I think it is this part of the audit that is causing consternation with many people on this board. The ISP knows who has applied, and it seems to be overreaching for them to be able to keep a list of people who are seeking private training from a private individual or institution.

I, for one, cannot think of any reason the ISP would need a roster of students. They already have a roster of all of your students who applied. However, they control the interaction, because non-compliance jeopardizes your standing as an instructor.

Edited by Brownshoe, 30 October 2017 - 12:24 PM.


#4 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:27 PM

 

They asked me for copies of my student rosters ...


Thank you for the update. I think it is this part of the audit that is causing consternation with many people on this board. The ISP knows who has applied, and it seems to be overreaching for them to be able to keep a list of people who are seeking private training from a private individual or institution.

I, for one, cannot think of any reason the ISP would need a roster of students. They already have a roster of all of your students who applied. However, they control the interaction, because non-compliance jeopardizes your standing as an instructor.

 

 

I guess that the answer would be that they want to see if anyone has counterfeited a certificate.....

 

They did ask what I thought of an instructor portal where the instructor uploads the certificate, which would eliminate that issue....


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#5 NRApistol

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 12:50 PM

 

 

They asked me for copies of my student rosters ...


Thank you for the update. I think it is this part of the audit that is causing consternation with many people on this board. The ISP knows who has applied, and it seems to be overreaching for them to be able to keep a list of people who are seeking private training from a private individual or institution.

I, for one, cannot think of any reason the ISP would need a roster of students. They already have a roster of all of your students who applied. However, they control the interaction, because non-compliance jeopardizes your standing as an instructor.

 

 

I guess that the answer would be that they want to see if anyone has counterfeited a certificate.....

 

They did ask what I thought of an instructor portal where the instructor uploads the certificate, which would eliminate that issue....

 

The counterfeited certificate has been a weak spot from day one. There has to be a better way to "police" this than asking my students not to post copies on social media.  If the ISP supplied a list of applicants to each instructor for verification it would have more impact than random audits. 



#6 gangrel

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 01:56 PM

I have said before, they don't need a portal for us to submit student certificates online. All they need is to create a portal where instructors review and verify students that apply under their CCT #. Just bring up a list with "Y" and "N" check boxes and a "Submit" button. Applications can't move forward until instructor verifies student. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

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#7 hgmeyer

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 03:05 PM

I have said before, they don't need a portal for us to submit student certificates online. All they need is to create a portal where instructors review and verify students that apply under their CCT #. Just bring up a list with "Y" and "N" check boxes and a "Submit" button. Applications can't move forward until instructor verifies student.

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#8 Smallbore

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 04:09 PM

There may be a problem with instructors varifying cerificates after the student applies. We recently had a student wait three years to apply.
What will be the applicants statis if the instructor has left the state or dies?

#9 NRApistol

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 05:42 PM

There may be a problem with instructors varifying cerificates after the student applies. We recently had a student wait three years to apply.
What will be the applicants statis if the instructor has left the state or dies?

Should be like the LE objection.  If the instructor does not object, the applicant should be good to go.  We are trying to protect the instuctor right?  Let the police look for the counterfeiters. That`s not our job.



#10 Gamma

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Posted 30 October 2017 - 06:23 PM

There may be a problem with instructors varifying cerificates after the student applies. We recently had a student wait three years to apply.
What will be the applicants statis if the instructor has left the state or dies?

Should be like the LE objection.  If the instructor does not object, the applicant should be good to go.  We are trying to protect the instuctor right?  Let the police look for the counterfeiters. That`s not our job.[/size]

This is the right approach.

Although, there is another more technical approach that they could take if so inclined. Generate a list of one-time only use certificate numbers keyed to that instructor number. Each certificate issued by the instructor would get a number off their list, it would only be good once and would only be valid for that instructors number... this is trivial to do with one-way encryption.

Edited by Gamma, 30 October 2017 - 06:26 PM.

Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#11 OrlandInstructor

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:42 AM

There may be a problem with instructors varifying cerificates after the student applies. We recently had a student wait three years to apply.
What will be the applicants statis if the instructor has left the state or dies?

We have had a few students that went to another Instructor, waited to apply, there was a problem with their certificate, they called their Instructor and their phone was disconnected.



#12 OrlandInstructor

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 08:42 AM

The audit procedure was straightforward.  They asked me for copies of my student rosters and my curriculum.  After a few questions about the structure of my classes (where, time, procedures, housekeeping stuff), they then had me talking for 95% of the hour long interview.  I think that they want to ensure that instructors know their curriculum and are hitting all the main points.

 

The big takeaway is that they asked me to tell other instructors with whom I come in contact three things:

 

1) Ensure you are using only NRA B-27 targets.

2) Tell your students not to post certificates on social media, as they can be counterfeited.

3) Ensure that each 8 hour class has 8 hours of actual instruction. Lunch does NOT count!  This is a big one.

 

All in all, it was a pleasant experience.  Nothing at all what I had worried about when the word "audit" was thrown out!  If your curriculum covers everything, you know your stuff and your rosters are in order, nothing to worry about.

Did they mention anything about renewals?



#13 gangrel

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 10:02 AM

There may be a problem with instructors varifying cerificates after the student applies. We recently had a student wait three years to apply.
What will be the applicants statis if the instructor has left the state or dies?

Good point. Agreed.

I still don't get why people pay good money to take a class like this, then sit on the certificate before applying. I could see a month or two, but years?

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#14 TRJ

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 11:57 AM

 

There may be a problem with instructors varifying cerificates after the student applies. We recently had a student wait three years to apply.
What will be the applicants statis if the instructor has left the state or dies?

Good point. Agreed.

I still don't get why people pay good money to take a class like this, then sit on the certificate before applying. I could see a month or two, but years?

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One of my friends waited a bit over a year. He was selling his house and didn't want to have to do an address change for more money.



#15 tkroenlein

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 01:29 PM

There is no part of instructors signing off for a second time that works for me.

Counterfeits are the state's problem, not the people who are already doing it right.


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#16 NRApistol

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 01:36 PM

There is no part of instructors signing off for a second time that works for me.

Counterfeits are the state's problem, not the people who are already doing it right.


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Exactly.  The ISP makes far more $$ on an 8 hour class than I do.  Let them do their job and I`ll do mine.



#17 THE KING

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 01:41 PM

There is no part of instructors signing off for a second time that works for me.
Counterfeits are the state's problem, not the people who are already doing it right.
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^^^^THIS

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#18 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:55 PM

I have some questions. Are your rosters the ones that the ISP suggested, or do you have your own roster style or spreadsheet? When they wanted copies, was it print copies or digital copies? When you said they let you do most of the talking, were they asking you questions or just letting you ramble? Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

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#19 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:56 PM

The audit procedure was straightforward.  They asked me for copies of my student rosters and my curriculum.  After a few questions about the structure of my classes (where, time, procedures, housekeeping stuff), they then had me talking for 95% of the hour long interview.  I think that they want to ensure that instructors know their curriculum and are hitting all the main points.
 
The big takeaway is that they asked me to tell other instructors with whom I come in contact three things:
 
1) Ensure you are using only NRA B-27 targets.
2) Tell your students not to post certificates on social media, as they can be counterfeited.
3) Ensure that each 8 hour class has 8 hours of actual instruction. Lunch does NOT count!  This is a big one.
 
All in all, it was a pleasant experience.  Nothing at all what I had worried about when the word "audit" was thrown out!  If your curriculum covers everything, you know your stuff and your rosters are in order, nothing to worry about.

Did they mention anything about renewals?

I don't recall us talking about the renewal curriculum at all. However they asked me what I thought of one instructors idea that people should be required to qualify every single year. I said I thought that was a stupid idea. They were not necessarily advocating that, which would require a change in the law, but asked me what I thought of that instructors opinion.

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#20 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 05:59 PM

I have some questions.

Are your rosters the ones that the ISP suggested, or do you have your own roster style or spreadsheet?

When they wanted copies, was it print copies or digital copies?


When you said they let you do most of the talking, were they asking you questions or just letting you ramble?



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I modeled my roster off of the one that they had online, except I do not have a student signature on there. I do have their signature on waivers and scanned copies of worksheets that they filled out, so there is more than enough physical evidence to establish that they were in my class in case that were ever an issue. However the administrative rules do not require a signature on the roster, merely that the roster contains certain information which I've outlined above.

I brought physical rosters and gave them a binder full of sheets. They did not mention whether electronic copies would be acceptable, but they did mention that an electronic copy of my curriculum would have been acceptable. I just gave them physical copies.

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#21 DomG

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 06:20 PM

The audit procedure was straightforward.  They asked me for copies of my student rosters and my curriculum.  After a few questions about the structure of my classes (where, time, procedures, housekeeping stuff), they then had me talking for 95% of the hour long interview.  I think that they want to ensure that instructors know their curriculum and are hitting all the main points.
 
The big takeaway is that they asked me to tell other instructors with whom I come in contact three things:
 
1) Ensure you are using only NRA B-27 targets.
2) Tell your students not to post certificates on social media, as they can be counterfeited.
3) Ensure that each 8 hour class has 8 hours of actual instruction. Lunch does NOT count!  This is a big one.
 
All in all, it was a pleasant experience.  Nothing at all what I had worried about when the word "audit" was thrown out!  If your curriculum covers everything, you know your stuff and your rosters are in order, nothing to worry about.

Did they mention anything about renewals?

I don't recall us talking about the renewal curriculum at all. However they asked me what I thought of one instructors idea that people should be required to qualify every single year. I said I thought that was a stupid idea. They were not necessarily advocating that, which would require a change in the law, but asked me what I thought of that instructors opinion.

What kind of moronic, anti-2A instructor, would want to make the Illinois law even more restrictive, expensive and time consuming?
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#22 NRApistol

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 06:23 PM

 

I have some questions.

Are your rosters the ones that the ISP suggested, or do you have your own roster style or spreadsheet?

When they wanted copies, was it print copies or digital copies?


When you said they let you do most of the talking, were they asking you questions or just letting you ramble?



Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk


I modeled my roster off of the one that they had online, except I do not have a student signature on there. I do have their signature on waivers and scanned copies of worksheets that they filled out, so there is more than enough physical evidence to establish that they were in my class in case that were ever an issue. However the administrative rules do not require a signature on the roster, merely that the roster contains certain information which I've outlined above.

I brought physical rosters and gave them a binder full of sheets. They did not mention whether electronic copies would be acceptable, but they did mention that an electronic copy of my curriculum would have been acceptable. I just gave them physical copies.

 

Did they keep copies of your rosters or just examine them?



#23 Mr. Fife

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 06:40 PM

I modeled my roster off of the one that they had online, except I do not have a student signature on there. I do have their signature on waivers and scanned copies of worksheets that they filled out, so there is more than enough physical evidence to establish that they were in my class in case that were ever an issue. However the administrative rules do not require a signature on the roster, merely that the roster contains certain information which I've outlined above. I brought physical rosters and gave them a binder full of sheets. They did not mention whether electronic copies would be acceptable, but they did mention that an electronic copy of my curriculum would have been acceptable. I just gave them physical copies.
I use an Excel spreadsheet with an "all " sheet tab, and then a new sheet tab for each class I ever taught. I also keep a signed waiver from everyone instead of a signed roster. Happy to hear that was acceptable. All of my records are digital for the most part, with scans of any papers that were signed or filled out, ie. NRA Basic written test, etc. I use the CLIC curriculum that I paid money for. I don't feel comfortable giving it away in a digital copy. So I guess I'm curious too.... Did they keep your copies or just examine them? Sent from my MotoG3 using Tapatalk

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#24 Tango7

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 06:59 PM

If there's a question about who has taken your class, why not just call and ask "Did Applicant X take your class back in <date>?"

I have an application that in addition to name, address, phone and DOB includes a signature line where they attest to being eligible for (or possessing) an FOID as a non-prohibited person.

Edited by Tango7, 31 October 2017 - 07:01 PM.

You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#25 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 06:59 PM

I modeled my roster off of the one that they had online, except I do not have a student signature on there. I do have their signature on waivers and scanned copies of worksheets that they filled out, so there is more than enough physical evidence to establish that they were in my class in case that were ever an issue. However the administrative rules do not require a signature on the roster, merely that the roster contains certain information which I've outlined above.
I brought physical rosters and gave them a binder full of sheets. They did not mention whether electronic copies would be acceptable, but they did mention that an electronic copy of my curriculum would have been acceptable. I just gave them physical copies.



I use an Excel spreadsheet with an "all " sheet tab, and then a new sheet tab for each class I ever taught. I also keep a signed waiver from everyone instead of a signed roster. Happy to hear that was acceptable.

All of my records are digital for the most part, with scans of any papers that were signed or filled out, ie. NRA Basic written test, etc. I use the CLIC curriculum that I paid money for. I don't feel comfortable giving it away in a digital copy. So I guess I'm curious too.... Did they keep your copies or just examine them?

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They kept a copy of all my roster and my curriculum.

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#26 NRApistol

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 07:23 PM

 

 

I modeled my roster off of the one that they had online, except I do not have a student signature on there. I do have their signature on waivers and scanned copies of worksheets that they filled out, so there is more than enough physical evidence to establish that they were in my class in case that were ever an issue. However the administrative rules do not require a signature on the roster, merely that the roster contains certain information which I've outlined above.
I brought physical rosters and gave them a binder full of sheets. They did not mention whether electronic copies would be acceptable, but they did mention that an electronic copy of my curriculum would have been acceptable. I just gave them physical copies.



I use an Excel spreadsheet with an "all " sheet tab, and then a new sheet tab for each class I ever taught. I also keep a signed waiver from everyone instead of a signed roster. Happy to hear that was acceptable.

All of my records are digital for the most part, with scans of any papers that were signed or filled out, ie. NRA Basic written test, etc. I use the CLIC curriculum that I paid money for. I don't feel comfortable giving it away in a digital copy. So I guess I'm curious too.... Did they keep your copies or just examine them?

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They kept a copy of all my roster and my curriculum.

 

Thanks, It sure seems like there was a law passed and dumped on the ISP and they are learning on the job at our expense.  My grandfather thought the FOID act was a way for the government to find our guns.  I know of people that refuse to get a FCCL for the same reason.  This smells to me.  If I`m asked to surrender records without a warrant I will protest and give up my Instructor status if necessary. Examine is one thing, coping is totally different, like registration.  WHAT IS ILLINOIS CARRY`s position on this?


Edited by NRApistol, 31 October 2017 - 07:41 PM.


#27 THE KING

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 07:31 PM

Did they pay for all of the copies? Cause it's not cheap for that amount of material to be copied.

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#28 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 07:39 PM

Did they pay for all of the copies? Cause it's not cheap for that amount of material to be copied.


I have calculated the cost of a printed copy of my curriculum's Student binder to be about $4.00 ( 95 pages) plus $2.00 for a binder ( bought in bulk from Sam's Club). Add more color copies for my instructor notes and 6-per-page printouts of PPT presentations and it is under $10. Another binder for the rosters, which I printed in black and white, and I figured I am out $13 or $14. Hardly a big financial burden. The two troopers were nice guys, doing their job. As I said in my original post, it was a pleasant experience. They struck me as caring about doing a good job.

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#29 NRApistol

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 07:47 PM

 

Did they pay for all of the copies? Cause it's not cheap for that amount of material to be copied.


I have calculated the cost of a printed copy of my curriculum's Student binder to be about $4.00 ( 95 pages) plus $2.00 for a binder ( bought in bulk from Sam's Club). Add more color copies for my instructor notes and 6-per-page printouts of PPT presentations and it is under $10. Another binder for the rosters, which I printed in black and white, and I figured I am out $13 or $14. Hardly a big financial burden. The two troopers were nice guys, doing their job. As I said in my original post, it was a pleasant experience. They struck me as caring about doing a good job.

 

Mike did they ASK you for copies or Demand them.  Bear in mind I support the ISP but hate the way this was dumped on them.  When the cop gets to be judge we are in trouble.



#30 AuroraInstructor

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Posted 31 October 2017 - 07:51 PM

Did they pay for all of the copies? Cause it's not cheap for that amount of material to be copied.

I have calculated the cost of a printed copy of my curriculum's Student binder to be about $4.00 ( 95 pages) plus $2.00 for a binder ( bought in bulk from Sam's Club). Add more color copies for my instructor notes and 6-per-page printouts of PPT presentations and it is under $10. Another binder for the rosters, which I printed in black and white, and I figured I am out $13 or $14. Hardly a big financial burden. The two troopers were nice guys, doing their job. As I said in my original post, it was a pleasant experience. They struck me as caring about doing a good job.
Mike did they ASK you for copies or Demand them.  Bear in mind I support the ISP but hate the way this was dumped on them.  When the cop gets to be judge we are in trouble.
"Demand" is a strong word. I didn't feel like they demanded anything because they were professional and courteous. He told me that he would meet me near my home, I live in Central Illinois now although I still do classes in Chicago area, and I said that's okay I can come to you in Springfield.

They told me bring a copy of my curriculum and student rosters. That's what I brought, expecting that I would be leaving them with them.

Edited by AuroraInstructor, 31 October 2017 - 07:51 PM.

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