Exhaustive Defensive Ammo Ballistics Test

[DD123]

Excellent testing done on the most commonly carried calibers for self defense. My guess is that this will either validate the selections you've made, or cause you to switch to something else.

 

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

 

 

[tkroenlein]

Good grief. 45 ACP's 230gr Ranger T's at 1.00" expanded.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[mic6010]

So 9mm really is the best ? Good to know.

[luckydawg13]

So 9mm really is the best ? Good to know.

Dead is Dead but the 45 will leave a bigger hole

[RandyP]

I have little doubt that modern SD ammo engineering has created a situation wherein the actual handgun caliber chosen is 'almost' a non-issue. As the testing confirms, a good hollow point will expand and create substantial damage potential. Worth noting that the deepest gel penetration often means the least bullet expansion.

 

My carry ammo choices look to provide scary enough results for me to not need to run out and buy anything else.

 

Thanks for posting the link DD123. Lucky Gunner spent an enormous amount of time AND money on this project. Heck, the gel alone was a small fortune:

 

https://www.clearballistics.com/shop/10-ballistic-gelatin-fbi-block/

 

Now add in all the ammo used. Crikey!

 

[Draal]

Great place to buy ammo too.

[DD123]

While I don't really buy ammo from them, well anyone really, I do appreciate the amount of effort they put into this, along with some of the other testing that they've done. Up to this point my favorite was their testing of wear based on using steel case versus brass cased 223. That test was just as detailed as this one, and just as useful.

 

It confirmed my choices of carry ammo across the calibers I carry or use for HD. HST's all performed remarkably well, along with the Hornady XTP 380 rounds.

[Hazborgufen]

I've read that the clear gelatin doesn't provide quite the same level of performance as properly calibrated yellow ballistic gelatin. Bullets tend to over-penetrate the clear stuff.

 

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2016/09/09/clear-ballistics-gelatin-not-performing-like-real-ballistics-gelatin/

 

That said, it does provide a nice data point for comparison.

 

Shooting the Bull 410 also has a very good series of ballistics gel videos which include the denim test:

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/ShootingTheBull410

 

Basically, if you're carrying a short barrel 9mm Federal HSTs will suit very nicely. I keep HSTs and Gold Dots in my ammo stash. I'm curious about the Winchester Ranger T's but I have so much of the other stuff I haven't gotten around to trying it out. I'm sure it's great as well.

[thobart]

Well my St +p's seem to be good and they feed much better then the ranger T's in my guns.

[ChicagoRonin70]

They don't have any of the Lehigh/Underwood loadings in there, from what I can see. In pig carcasses, the Xtreme Penetrators, Xtreme Defenders, and Maximum Expansion rounds do more damage and have more consistent penetration than any other load I've seen.

 

Also, several people I know have used these loads in defensive shootings, with devastating effect.

 

There are also some excellent ballistic gel tests with bones, meat, and simulated organs that show some very interesting comparisons to other defensive ammunition:

 

 

 

[AlphaKoncepts aka CGS]

Some of these results are interesting and counter intuitive. For example the 9mm Hornady Critical Defense when compared to the Critical Defense +p. I'd say the regular critical defense faired better than the Plus P.

It's also interesting to see the amount of over penetration we see from some of the more common ammunition types. As Hazbo noted clear gel isn't quite the same as ballistics gel.

The PMC star fire I carry in my Ruger LC9 all over penetrated. However the timing of this article is perfect since I am switching over my carry gun in the very near future to a P320. I'm gonna add a couple names to the list of brands to try.

[Bitter Clinger]

Some of these results are interesting and counter intuitive. For example the 9mm Hornady Critical Defense when compared to the Critical Defense +p. I'd say the regular critical defense faired better than the Plus P.

I thought that was interesting too, especially since that's what I've been carrying.

 

The tests of the super fast and light (50 grain) Liberty ammo was interesting too. It doesn't penetrate very far but it makes an enormous initial wound channel and sends shrapnel everywhere. I was considering switching to that, but I'm still not sure. It would certainly lighten up the gun by a noticeable amount though.

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

Some of these results are interesting and counter intuitive. For example the 9mm Hornady Critical Defense when compared to the Critical Defense +p. I'd say the regular critical defense faired better than the Plus P.

I thought that was interesting too, especially since that's what I've been carrying.

 

The tests of the super fast and light (50 grain) Liberty ammo was interesting too. It doesn't penetrate very far but it makes an enormous initial wound channel and sends shrapnel everywhere. I was considering switching to that, but I'm still not sure. It would certainly lighten up the gun by a noticeable amount though.

 

 

The Liberty ammunition does not acquit itself well in actual meat targets, terminally ballistics-wise. In pig carcasses, it went in about 6 inches and the shrapnel pieces didn't penetrate bones very well at all. On shoulder-blades and pelvises, it does not break them the way heavier or more solid rounds (such as the Lehighs/Underwoods) do. It would be good for a gut-shot if you wanted to make someone suffer, or a head-shot because it would cause fluid overpressure and make the skull pop like a melon, due to the in initial speed of impact, but from what I saw it would not be something I'd rely on for sufficient damage and stopping ability.

[DD123]

What I personally look for in defensive ammo is pretty straightforward....

 

I look for consistency. So there are numerous people doing defensive ammo testing on youtube. TNOutdoors, Shooting the Bull, and others test ammo.

 

There is one type of bullet that seems to open up consistently across calibers, minus 380, and it's the various flavorings of the Federal HST. They all seem to expand reliably into a lead and copper tarantula. I haven't seen one test where they failed to expand.

 

The other bullet that seems to expand fairly reliably is the Hornady XTP. I've seen a couple of instances where they failed to expand, but less frequently than the Critical Defense/Duty rounds.

 

Consistency also extends to velocity. How consistent are the powder charges? I'm basically looking for something that's as consistent as my hand loads. SD ammo generally is pretty consistent from that regard, but based on some of the testing I've watched on youtube, some brands are a bit inconsistent. HST's and Hornady Customs are very consistent. The only thing that made me choose HST over Custom was the consistent expansion of the HST's.

[TRJ]

What I personally look for in defensive ammo is pretty straightforward....

 

I look for consistency. So there are numerous people doing defensive ammo testing on youtube. TNOutdoors, Shooting the Bull, and others test ammo.

 

There is one type of bullet that seems to open up consistently across calibers, minus 380, and it's the various flavorings of the Federal HST. They all seem to expand reliably into a lead and copper tarantula. I haven't seen one test where they failed to expand.

 

The other bullet that seems to expand fairly reliably is the Hornady XTP. I've seen a couple of instances where they failed to expand, but less frequently than the Critical Defense/Duty rounds.

 

Consistency also extends to velocity. How consistent are the powder charges? I'm basically looking for something that's as consistent as my hand loads. SD ammo generally is pretty consistent from that regard, but based on some of the testing I've watched on youtube, some brands are a bit inconsistent. HST's and Hornady Customs are very consistent. The only thing that made me choose HST over Custom was the consistent expansion of the HST's.

 

While I'm no advocate for Lehigh type solid projectile rounds because I fear over penetration, this consistent performance argument seems to extend to them as well.

[abolt243]

Good grief. 45 ACP's 230gr Ranger T's at 1.00" expanded.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

Yep, and if you shop around, you can find it for less than $.50/ round in .45. I've seen this study several times and am always amazed at the performance (or lack of) by what I call "designer" loads that go for $1/round or more.

[chislinger]

While I don't really buy ammo from them, well anyone really, I do appreciate the amount of effort they put into this, along with some of the other testing that they've done.

If only they did a tiny fraction of that effort in researching Illinois gun laws, particularly the legality of shipping ammo to Chicago.

[DD123]

 

What I personally look for in defensive ammo is pretty straightforward....

 

I look for consistency. So there are numerous people doing defensive ammo testing on youtube. TNOutdoors, Shooting the Bull, and others test ammo.

 

There is one type of bullet that seems to open up consistently across calibers, minus 380, and it's the various flavorings of the Federal HST. They all seem to expand reliably into a lead and copper tarantula. I haven't seen one test where they failed to expand.

 

The other bullet that seems to expand fairly reliably is the Hornady XTP. I've seen a couple of instances where they failed to expand, but less frequently than the Critical Defense/Duty rounds.

 

Consistency also extends to velocity. How consistent are the powder charges? I'm basically looking for something that's as consistent as my hand loads. SD ammo generally is pretty consistent from that regard, but based on some of the testing I've watched on youtube, some brands are a bit inconsistent. HST's and Hornady Customs are very consistent. The only thing that made me choose HST over Custom was the consistent expansion of the HST's.

While I'm no advocate for Lehigh type solid projectile rounds because I fear over penetration, this consistent performance argument seems to extend to them as well.

 

Until LE adopts them and there's some real world data on the effectiveness on the human body, I'll wait on those. I've seen their phillips head screwdriver looking bullets tested and they do look promising, especially in 380 where penetration is an issue.

 

Some of their data looks downright dangerous. I tried replicating the velocity they were getting out of a G29 using 180 grain 10mm and I had to stop because I exceeded published max by a lot, and the recoil was to the point where an accurate rapid follow up shot was next to impossible.

 

Shot placement is far more important than anything else, so getting crazy with velocity just impacts the ability to get back on target with additional rounds quickly. There would be nothing worse than firing one round and it hits a bone and deflects to a non vital area, and then assessing and reengaging. At that point, you'll probably have a round or two in you.

 

I can't believe I actually carried a 10mm around for a couple of months. There's no point in carrying something that powerful when the increases in terminal ballistics are negated by not being able to get accurate and rapid follow up shots. I can shoot that gun and control it a lot better today than when I first bought it, but the trade off in recoil isn't worth it.

 

The Lehigh rounds are interesting though, and I'm assuming that at some point we'll have some empirical data of SD shootings using them.

[DD123]

 

While I don't really buy ammo from them, well anyone really, I do appreciate the amount of effort they put into this, along with some of the other testing that they've done.

If only they did a tiny fraction of that effort in researching Illinois gun laws, particularly the legality of shipping ammo to Chicago.

 

I honestly don't blame companies for avoiding Chicago. It's like trying to convince companies to send mags above 10 rounds to residents of home rule communities in Crook. The laws are purposely convoluted.

[chislinger]

 

 

While I don't really buy ammo from them, well anyone really, I do appreciate the amount of effort they put into this, along with some of the other testing that they've done.

If only they did a tiny fraction of that effort in researching Illinois gun laws, particularly the legality of shipping ammo to Chicago.

 

I honestly don't blame companies for avoiding Chicago. It's like trying to convince companies to send mags above 10 rounds to residents of home rule communities in Crook. The laws are purposely convoluted.

 

I blame them when they claim to be fighting for our rights, then they cite laws which don't exist to screw over Chicago residents. Oh, and they'll charge you $30 for ordering from Chicago too.

 

F Lucky Gunner.

[DD123]

 

 

If only they did a tiny fraction of that effort in researching Illinois gun laws, particularly the legality of shipping ammo to Chicago.

 

I honestly don't blame companies for avoiding Chicago. It's like trying to convince companies to send mags above 10 rounds to residents of home rule communities in Crook. The laws are purposely convoluted.

 

I blame them when they claim to be fighting for our rights, then they cite laws which don't exist to screw over Chicago residents. Oh, and they'll charge you $30 for ordering from Chicago too.

 

F Lucky Gunner.

 

You're asking companies to know convoluted laws in all 50 states. How many states have convoluted laws....1/3rd maybe? I don't mean state law, I mean with having numerous municipal laws..

 

Lucky Gunner already experienced getting dragged into court.

 

It becomes a risk/benefit analysis. How much revenue can they generate by selling to people in Chicago? Is it significant enough to take whatever risks they're assuming there are in Chicago? I'm sure their lawyers, CFO and COO's swayed that decision.

[Raw Power]

I'm really pleased at how the 150gr 9mm HST performed in this test. It's what I'm carrying in my small frame 9mm now, and looks like it does exactly what it's supposed to. At .71 average diameter, it looks like it performs very well.

 

Biggest surprise for me, was how well the .45 ACP Winchester Ranger T-series seems to perform.

[ChicagoRonin70]

 

 

What I personally look for in defensive ammo is pretty straightforward....

 

I look for consistency. So there are numerous people doing defensive ammo testing on youtube. TNOutdoors, Shooting the Bull, and others test ammo.

 

There is one type of bullet that seems to open up consistently across calibers, minus 380, and it's the various flavorings of the Federal HST. They all seem to expand reliably into a lead and copper tarantula. I haven't seen one test where they failed to expand.

 

The other bullet that seems to expand fairly reliably is the Hornady XTP. I've seen a couple of instances where they failed to expand, but less frequently than the Critical Defense/Duty rounds.

 

Consistency also extends to velocity. How consistent are the powder charges? I'm basically looking for something that's as consistent as my hand loads. SD ammo generally is pretty consistent from that regard, but based on some of the testing I've watched on youtube, some brands are a bit inconsistent. HST's and Hornady Customs are very consistent. The only thing that made me choose HST over Custom was the consistent expansion of the HST's.

While I'm no advocate for Lehigh type solid projectile rounds because I fear over penetration, this consistent performance argument seems to extend to them as well.

 

Until LE adopts them and there's some real world data on the effectiveness on the human body, I'll wait on those. I've seen their phillips head screwdriver looking bullets tested and they do look promising, especially in 380 where penetration is an issue.

 

Some of their data looks downright dangerous. I tried replicating the velocity they were getting out of a G29 using 180 grain 10mm and I had to stop because I exceeded published max by a lot, and the recoil was to the point where an accurate rapid follow up shot was next to impossible.

 

Shot placement is far more important than anything else, so getting crazy with velocity just impacts the ability to get back on target with additional rounds quickly. There would be nothing worse than firing one round and it hits a bone and deflects to a non vital area, and then assessing and reengaging. At that point, you'll probably have a round or two in you.

 

I can't believe I actually carried a 10mm around for a couple of months. There's no point in carrying something that powerful when the increases in terminal ballistics are negated by not being able to get accurate and rapid follow up shots. I can shoot that gun and control it a lot better today than when I first bought it, but the trade off in recoil isn't worth it.

 

The Lehigh rounds are interesting though, and I'm assuming that at some point we'll have some empirical data of SD shootings using them.

 

 

I am sure you all have seen my previous expounding on my extensive pig-carcass shooting experiments using the Underwood loadings of various Lehigh Defense projectiles. The bottom line on those is that I have not had a single over-penetration in the closest thing I could get to a human body, 150–200-pound relatively fresh, never frozen pig carcasses. I've also done comparable testing, or been present for, most of the other industry leading brands of rounds, in .380, 9mm, .40 S&W, .45 ACP, and 10mm (also, just for kicks 9x25 Dillon, because I have a barrel for my G29SF in that caliber).

 

Without exception, the Xtreme Penetrator and Defender equal or exceed the tissue damage and penetration in actual flesh of any of the other rounds, especially for penetration through bone. The only round that does better tissue damage consistently than those is the Maximum Expansion projectile, although it doesn't go through the bone as effectively. Still, it outperformed the Ranger-T and Gold Dot loadings from Underwood that I shot at it, as well as the HST and others. I used to carry both Rangers and Gold Dots until I did my testing as my hollow point choices.

 

Note that after I've shot up the carcass targets, I've done careful dissection of them to check out the wound path and terminal ballistic effects. Me and a scalpel and bone saw spent quite a few unpleasant hours with them in the name of empirical science. Messy and disgusting, but necessary for me to put my own mind to rest that what I'm using is

 

Additionally, a number of my female self-protection trainees have had actual defensive shootings, using the Lehigh or Underwood loadings (depending on caliber), both Xtreme Defenders and Maximum Expansion rounds, and all of those resulted in very effective stoppages of the crime in progress. How effective? None of the people that were on the receiving end of them are going to be attempting to repeat their mistakes, essentially.

 

As well, the tactical security company that I used to do work with has had a number of field incidents using these various rounds, and between that data and what I was able to provide with my testing, I can confidently say that at present there aren't more effective rounds than the Underwood loadings of Lehigh projectiles on the market. They are effectively barrier blind, are remarkably consistent in their performance, and do more damage in real tissue and bone than anything else.

 

A few additional notes:

 

Xtreme Penetrator: Best use is as a "field" round against large predators or for handgun hunting, similar as you would use a hardcast lead round. Or, for combat purposes, since the penetration through barriers, impediments, and gear is a significant concern. It still does a significant amount of tissue damage and creates a large permanent wound cavity.

 

Xtreme Defender: Best use as a non-expanding, yet non-overpenetrating defensive round that is barrier and bone-blind. Consistent penetration into flesh targets about 14" regardless of hitting bone, going through clothing, transiting barriers (including up to Level IIIA ballistic protective vests with the higher velocity versions in heavier calibers, but even .380 will go through Level II due to the tip geometry and velocity). Does more soft tissue damage than the Xtreme Penetrator due to having more high velocity "fling-off" and hydrodynamic effect on tissue that is mostly liquid (i.e. muscle, fat, organs).

 

Maximum Expansion: Best use as an expanding defensive round that will go through bone with very little problem (less than lead and copper-jacketed rounds) and will consistently expand as large or larger than anything else caliber-for-caliber. The expansion diameter combined with the geometry of the open "blades" that the projectile opens up into also does more tissue damage and creates a larger permanent wound cavity in actual tissue than any other round I tested. These also go through clothing with less clogging and better expansion than any lead/copper round, which as you know will notoriously clog through the four-layer-denim testing. Not these. The penetration with these into actual flesh targets is about 11"–12" almost without exception, except if they hit bone, then it's about 2" less.

 

By comparison, Ranger-Ts, Gold Dots, and HSTs will penetrate a pig about 9"–11" unless they hit a bone, then they will penetrate about 3" less. However, if they go through heavy clothing, such as leather jackets and thick sweatshirts and denim, they expand about half normal and penetrate 5"-8" more, but do much less damage than if they expanded normally.

 

[chislinger]

You're asking companies to know convoluted laws in all 50 states. How many states have convoluted laws....1/3rd maybe? I don't mean state law, I mean with having numerous municipal laws..

 

Lucky Gunner already experienced getting dragged into court.

They got dragged into court in Colorado. They still sell ammo to Colorado residents. Even in Aurora.

 

There is only one law in Illinois, the state law which preempts all local ordinances. That's the only law LG needs to know. If they can ship to Naperville they can ship to Chicago.

 

They are not supportive of the 2nd Amendment rights of Chicago residents, or even the rights we have under state law.

 

F Lucky Gunner.

[chislinger]

Oh, and has any ammunition seller ever shown any evidence that they received anything threatening from an official Chicago or Cook County public office? There's none that I know of.

 

And they claim they can't ship to Chicago because of some mysterious law, not because they're afraid of getting sued. Either they are extremely incompetent or they are liars. Either way I cannot now or ever support them as long as they maintain this current policy.