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FOID "transport" during real estate open house


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#1 84Hawk

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 12:19 PM

I have a friend who recently got her real estate license and has begun showing houses (mostly alone).  She has a FOID but not a FCCL (yet).  I'm wondering if it is legal for her to FOID transport (unloaded and in a case) a firearm to the property during an open house?  Notionally, as placing it in a kitchen drawer or something similar.

 

Thoughts anyone?



#2 Stevepk

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 12:40 PM

In a kitchen drawer?

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#3 soundguy

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 12:56 PM

I don't think stashing an unloaded gun in a kitchen drawer of a house that's not mine (or even my house) is a good idea.

 

In a "fanny packing" situation, the unloaded gun is in a case around your waist with a full magazine ready to load.

The whole point is to have it readily available in an emergency, and under your control in the meantime.

In a drawer, in the other room, will never do that.

 

She would be better off with a pocketbook or purse designed to carry her gun and a spare magazine.

Unloaded gun goes in the gun spot.

Full mag in the spare mag spot.

Purse is under her control.

Will work with her CCL.


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#4 84Hawk

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 12:59 PM

Can she fanny pack an unloaded gun with the mag ready with only a FOID?



#5 soundguy

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 01:07 PM

Can she fanny pack an unloaded gun with the mag ready with only a FOID?

 

Yes.

Fanny pack is a case.

So is a purse, murse, backpack, etc.

The mag may be full and be in the same case as the gun.

 

Reference to John Birch, Concealed Carry Inc.

Six Seconds to Safety

See post #18

GSL article

More IC discussion from last year

 

Use "Six Seconds to Safety" as your google search for additional thoughts, info.


Edited by soundguy, 15 November 2018 - 01:22 PM.

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#6 84Hawk

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 01:47 PM

Thanks!



#7 THE KING

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 02:21 PM

As the realtor she is at the house with the permission of the owner. There is no reason she can't carry her firearm loaded while on the property. She just needs to unload it and put it back in the case before she leaves.

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#8 Strangebrew

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 07:34 PM

I have a friend who recently got her real estate license and has begun showing houses (mostly alone).  She has a FOID but not a FCCL (yet).  I'm wondering if it is legal for her to FOID transport (unloaded and in a case) a firearm to the property during an open house?  Notionally, as placing it in a kitchen drawer or something similar.

 

Thoughts anyone?

 

You can carry concealed on private property with a FOID



#9 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 08:46 PM

As the realtor she is at the house with the permission of the owner. There is no reason she can't carry her firearm loaded while on the property. She just needs to unload it and put it back in the case before she leaves.

she is at the property with permission, doesn't mean she can carry. She needs specific permission for that. At least this is my interpretation of the law.

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#10 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 08:48 PM

Sec. 24-1.6. Aggravated unlawful use of a weapon.
(a) A person commits the offense of aggravated unlawful use of a weapon when he or she knowingly:
(1) Carries on or about his or her person or in any

vehicle or concealed on or about his or her person except when on his or her land or in his or her abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm;


Seems to me you need permission to carry the gun (if you don't have a CCL), not simply permission to be on the property.

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#11 THE KING

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Posted 15 November 2018 - 09:28 PM

As the realtor she is at the house with the permission of the owner. There is no reason she can't carry her firearm loaded while on the property. She just needs to unload it and put it back in the case before she leaves.

she is at the property with permission, doesn't mean she can carry. She needs specific permission for that. At least this is my interpretation of the law.

I would have to politely disagree. There is nothing that specifically says you have to have permission to carry. My interpretation is that all you have to do is be invited to be on the property.

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#12 FST_Kent

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 06:09 AM

I would have to politely disagree. There is nothing that specifically says you have to have permission to carry. My interpretation is that all you have to do is be invited to be on the property. 

 

 

I was about to agree, but your friend is no longer "transporting" while on the property and the case/fanny pack exception doesn't apply.

 

http://www.ilga.gov/...SeqEnd=72000000

 

 

(4) Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission, any pistol, revolver, stun gun or taser or other firearm, except that this subsection (a) (4) does not apply to or affect transportation of weapons that meet one of the following conditions:
            (i) are broken down in a non-functioning state; or
            (ii) are not immediately accessible; or 
            (iii) are unloaded and enclosed in a case

 



#13 soylentgreen

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 10:18 AM

Having permission to be on a person's property is not permission to carry concealed without a CCL. If you think it is, why not just ask the owner if they mind it if you carry concealed? BECAUSE you're afraid they'll refuse...which is an indicator that you DO know you need permission. Or how about just tell the property owner that you plan to carry concealed on their property without a CCL...and there's nothing they can do about it?

 

DO NOT hide a gun in a drawer or some other place. If you forget to grab it before you leave, will a child find it? A loaded gun? Don't be irresponsible. You have the right to do that in your own home...but not someone else's.

 

84Hawk, I hope your friend is moving forward with getting a CCL in an expeditious manner.



#14 Lou

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 10:45 AM

Back when the FCCL first passed I had the manager of a RE firm approach me about giving a private 16 hour class just for his agents.
He said most of his agents were female and not only were worried about open houses but also showings where they were 1 on 1 with a perspective client.

It just never worked out ut it shows the interest in the industry.

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#15 Quiet Observer

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 12:47 PM

The law puts the onus on the property owner to make known that they do not allow guns on the property.  Such public and commercial buildings must be posted with the ISP approved sign at the entrances.  Private residences are not required to be posted. They could ask that their desire be included in the listing or passed on by the real estate agents in other ways.  I doubt agents would want to ask clients if the are packing.

A carrier is not required by law to notify anyone that they are carrying, except if asked by the police during an investigation.  

 

As others have noted, FOID carry is awkward.  I think that it would be prudent for a real estate agent to carry with a CCL.  That might conflict with certain agencies policies.  

Again, you do not have to tell anyone (except police in an investigative stop).  



#16 FST_Kent

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 04:35 PM

The law puts the onus on the property owner to make known that they do not allow guns on the property.

 

 

For CCL carrier, but you need permission from a pvt property owner with just a FOID even "cased" and unloaded per fanny pack carry.



#17 Smallbore

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 05:16 PM

The law puts the onus on the property owner to make known that they do not allow guns on the property.

 
For CCL carrier, but you need permission from a pvt property owner with just a FOID even "cased" and unloaded per fanny pack carry.

private property does not have to post.
Pretty sure private property owner has to give permission for both foid and ccl.

#18 cope

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 06:43 PM

Couldnt one argue that an "Open House" for any person in the public to freely enter changes the situation. For the period of "open house" I would think this can be classified as a public place which is not posted, therefore no need for any permissions from anyone.

 

Just thinking in terms of being a perspective buyer. I do not need anyones permission to carry in to an "open house" unless the listing or house is clearly posted. You have opened the home to the public in a business transaction.



#19 quackersmacker

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 07:39 PM

Couldnt one argue that an "Open House" for any person in the public to freely enter changes the situation. For the period of "open house" I would think this can be classified as a public place which is not posted, therefore no need for any permissions from anyone.

 

Just thinking in terms of being a perspective buyer. I do not need anyones permission to carry in to an "open house" unless the listing or house is clearly posted. You have opened the home to the public in a business transaction.

Very interesting perspective.  Wish you'd been in my study group in law school.


Edited by quackersmacker, 16 November 2018 - 07:41 PM.

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#20 fxdpntc

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 07:45 PM

The agent is not a guest. She has a signed agreement from the seller to be there. Anything that agreement does not specifically exclude, and is otherwise legal...

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#21 FST_Kent

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 08:50 PM

The agent is not a guest. She has a signed agreement from the seller to be there. Anything that agreement does not specifically exclude, and is otherwise legal...

 

So............if one does not explicitly prohibit an activity(s) in the listing agreement an agent can do whatever they want in your home?



#22 fxdpntc

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Posted 16 November 2018 - 08:55 PM

The agent is not a guest. She has a signed agreement from the seller to be there. Anything that agreement does not specifically exclude, and is otherwise legal...

 
So............if one does not explicitly prohibit an activity(s) in the listing agreement an agent can do whatever they want in your home?

I didn't say that.

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#23 Quiet Observer

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 09:40 AM

I do not see in either the FCCA or UUW laws differentiation between guest or agent.  

The residents makes the decision whether a person can enter the dwelling. 

If they object to the presence of a gun, it is up to them to make that known prior granting or refusing admittance to the residence.

The resident's wishes should be respected, but a potential visitor is not required to be a mind reader

Nothing says that a FOID or CCL carrier has to announce that he is carrying before seeking admission to a residence.  



#24 THE KING

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 09:46 AM

I do not see in either the FCCA or UUW laws differentiation between guest or agent.  

The residents makes the decision whether a person can enter the dwelling. 

If they object to the presence of a gun, it is up to them to make that known prior granting or refusing admittance to the residence.

The resident's wishes should be respected, but a potential visitor is not required to be a mind reader

Nothing says that a FOID or CCL carrier has to announce that he is carrying before seeking admission to a residence.  

EXACTLY, I don't understand why some people read too much into this. It's not rocket science.

 

After all, concealed is concealed.



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#25 FST_Kent

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 09:59 AM

Nothing says that a FOID or CCL carrier has to announce that he is carrying before seeking admission to a residence.  

 

 

It does for the FOID card only.  Don't believe me, ask Todd.  He had the language added a couple of yrs ago.

 

What part of "as an invitee with that person's permission" is unclear?

 

Carries or possesses in any vehicle or concealed on or about his person except when on his land or in his own abode, legal dwelling, or fixed place of business, or on the land or in the legal dwelling of another person as an invitee with that person's permission

 



#26 Quiet Observer

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 10:24 AM

The word "invitee" does not designate the reason, social or commercial, for the visit. 

By holding the door open and/or saying "come in" (or similar phrase), you are inviting the person(s).

Unless the resident states otherwise, that invitation is essentially unconditional.  I do not mean every possible condition that may be thought of.

Burglars and trespassers are not invitees. If armed, whether or not displayed, they are also violating firearm laws.



#27 FST_Kent

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 10:31 AM

I'm not arguing someone walking in off the street for the open house.  I'm talking about the agent hosting the open house who is an invitee in my opinion.

 

Now an agent coming in off the street with a client may be a loophole in the law.  I don't know, but Todd would, and if someone could find it, he once posted about adding the "with permission" language.  So ask him.



#28 fxdpntc

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Posted 17 November 2018 - 04:56 PM

 

The agent is not a guest. She has a signed agreement from the seller to be there. Anything that agreement does not specifically exclude, and is otherwise legal...

 

So............if one does not explicitly prohibit an activity(s) in the listing agreement an agent can do whatever they want in your home?

 

To clarify further. I've  been to more than a few open houses in the last two or so months. Some of them are new construction. The builder is the owner. I don't really consider them "homes". Obviously no one lives there. Others have owner occupants that have moved out, lock, stock, and barrel. Completely empty. They're not likely to be  back until closing, or maybe not even then. Some of the houses, the owner has moved out, but left some furniture, but nothing else.  Either the owner hasn't gotten around to moving it yet, or they're  going to sell it. Ive also been in a few where the owner is still living there, but obviously left during the open house. Leaving an agent there. Now you could say, common courtesy might require you to ask. I wouldn't argue that. Ive been carrying every time. Never gave it much thought.

 

As far as the agent is concerned in the OP. She has a signed agreement, giving her permission to be in that property, anytime during business hours. The owner has 3 ways to prohibit on the property. By specifying in the agreement. The owner can add that in. By posting posting a compliant sign on the door. Or verbally telling the agent. Any one of those three, or combination. The agent must comply.

If not I believe she is on pretty solid ground legally. For FOID carry. Or better, CCL. Just my opinion.

 

Female agents have been murdered while alone at open houses, or with a client. If an agent wants, and feels the need to have the ability to defend themselves, and have not been specifically prohibited. I would say alive is much better than dead and legal.


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#29 FST_Kent

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 03:39 AM

Doesn't matter what condition the home is in or if it's occupied, it's still private property.  Having an open house doesn't change it's status from private to public property either.

 

The law uses the word "invitee".  The agent and everyone stepping foot on the property is a guest.  

 

Per the law under FOID carry, permission must be given by the owner to be on the property and to have a firearm(s) in your possessionIt's 2 separate permissions.  Before that language was added a few yrs ago, permission couldn't be given by an owner to an invitee/guest.  The hunting code made an exception(somewhere).

 

As I've said, ask Todd.  I'll try and catch the Chief Circuit Court judge here who's wife is also a lawyer, teacher, and licensed real estate agent.  I don't see him in his yard as often this time of year or catch him when he's on one of his walks, so won't be right away unless I call his office and go see him in the court house.  I do have a court house issue to follow up on with the him and the new incoming sheriff, so I really need to talk to him as it is.

 

The property doesn't need to be posted for FOID carry.  CCL is a different issue that wasn't asked in the original question.

 

I totally get the alive or dead part.



#30 vito

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Posted 18 November 2018 - 09:10 AM

I assume that she is seeking her concealed carry license as expeditiously as possible. But in the interim, maybe you could accompany her and provide armed security for her. Real estate agents are easy prey for predators, and even being armed may not do much when in an empty property with the "interested" potential buyer who is really a rapist or mugger looking for an easy score. Having a second person with her at all times is probably a prudent practice, armed or not. Even if licensed and carrying, what will she be doing to have easy access to her gun? Walking around with the potential buyer with her hand in her purse on the gun at all times? Certainly a dangerous occupation without easy answers for security. 


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