InterestedBystander Posted August 23, 2018 at 01:37 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 01:37 PM Full story at link http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2018/08/daniel-zimmerman/judge-rules-against-challenge-to-cook-county-gun-ammunition-taxes/ Cook County, Illinois has had a $25 per firearm tax on gun sales since 2013. In 21016 [sic], they imposed a tax on ammunition sales, too. Because guns. A collection of gun dealers backed by the National Rifle Association and Guns Save Life sued to invalidate the taxes. But late last week, a Cook County Circuit Court judge ruled against the plaintiffs. Heres the announcement from Maxon Shooters Supply. Cook County Firearm and Ammo Tax Update Short version: we lost at the trial court level. This is not an unexpected decision, though it is disappointing. Five years after we filed this lawsuit, and eight months after arguments ended, Judge David B. Atkins has issued a very thin three and a half page ruling. There is very little in it addressing the substance of the arguments only conclusions. Our arguments are: This is effectively an illegal poll taxIt is an undue burden on Cook County Retailers and lawful customersIt is a regulation in violation of state preemption (IL state has preemption on any firearm laws)In 2013, the Cook County Board passed a $25 per firearm tax for all firearms sold by dealers in the county. Then in 2016, the Board added an ammunition tax of $0.05 per round for centerfire and $0.01 per round for rimfire ammo. Maxon Shooters is the sole remaining gun shop plaintiff in this lawsuit, and we will be part of the appeal; other plaintiffs are Maxon customer Marilyn Smolenski (who is running for the ILGA in November) and GSL. The Appellate Court is a much faster track than the trial court typically. We remain optimistic that we will win at the Appellate or Supreme Court level. Thank you for your continued support and interest in this matter. Stay tuned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soylentgreen Posted August 23, 2018 at 03:19 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 03:19 PM I don't see how the argument that it's like a poll tax can be refuted. You should not have to pay to access your rights. I'd take it even further and say that guns and ammunition should not be subject to any sales taxes at all either. Newspapers and magazines are not subject to sales tax. I presume that's because of the first amendment freedom of the press. Why shouldn't guns and ammo also be exempt due to the second amendment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soylentgreen Posted August 23, 2018 at 03:22 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 03:22 PM And...another thing...this tax puts gun-related businesses in Cook at a massive disadvantage. Maxon has to compete with other gun shops in Lake and DuPage who don't have to charge this tax. I'm certain the purpose of the tax is to run gun shops out of the county completely...because, you know, guns are bad. None of this addresses the violence problem in the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots & Tyrants Posted August 23, 2018 at 03:40 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 03:40 PM I wonder if this will lead to Cabelas in Hoffman Estates closing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconSorcerer Posted August 23, 2018 at 04:11 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 04:11 PM I don't see how the argument that it's like a poll tax can be refuted. You should not have to pay to access your rights. I'd take it even further and say that guns and ammunition should not be subject to any sales taxes at all either. Newspapers and magazines are not subject to sales tax. I presume that's because of the first amendment freedom of the press. Why shouldn't guns and ammo also be exempt due to the second amendment? How can the Carry or even a FOID not be a poll tax? You don't make people pay to vote and everything involved in that is a whole lot more then what it takes to run the FOID process. I'm not sure I could argue you that can't make you get a card but it should be free and if it's for carry if they want classes they also should be free.Frankly I would recommend classes before you vote as well and if they raise firearms to 21 so should voting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soylentgreen Posted August 23, 2018 at 04:35 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 04:35 PM I wonder if this will lead to Cabelas in Hoffman Estates closingI doubt it. Guns aren't their only business. The last time I was there, the tax was in effect and the gun counter was very busy. A small shop like Maxon is a different story. They're in an out-of-the way location and they don't have the benefit of someone shopping for fishing tackle who may saunter over to the gun counter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted August 23, 2018 at 04:42 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 04:42 PM I don't see how the argument that it's like a poll tax can be refuted. You should not have to pay to access your rights. I'd take it even further and say that guns and ammunition should not be subject to any sales taxes at all either. Newspapers and magazines are not subject to sales tax. I presume that's because of the first amendment freedom of the press. Why shouldn't guns and ammo also be exempt due to the second amendment? How can the Carry or even a FOID not be a poll tax? You don't make people pay to vote and everything involved in that is a whole lot more then what it takes to run the FOID process. I'm not sure I could argue you that can't make you get a card but it should be free and if it's for carry if they want classes they also should be free.Frankly I would recommend classes before you vote as well and if they raise firearms to 21 so should voting! Democrats complain that having to show ID to vote is racist. I'd agree that showing ID to carry is no different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted August 23, 2018 at 05:53 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 05:53 PM And...another thing...this tax puts gun-related businesses in Cook at a massive disadvantage. Yeah, I think that may have been part of the decision. If they can't legislatively keep gun stores out of Cook County, an activist judge can help to tax them out of Cook County. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChicagoRonin70 Posted August 23, 2018 at 09:13 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 09:13 PM If for no other reason, this should have negated the entire tax and caused the ruling to be in favor of the plaintiffs: It is a regulation in violation of state preemption (IL state has preemption on any firearm laws). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Euler Posted August 23, 2018 at 10:38 PM Share Posted August 23, 2018 at 10:38 PM ... Newspapers and magazines are not subject to sales tax. I presume that's because of the first amendment freedom of the press.... Some states tax newspapers and magazines. Some don't. Historically it's more about the fact that the press probably isn't going to say anything nice about any politician who proposes taxing the press and that newspapers and magazines can be bought so many different ways, including out of vending machines, that figuring out how to collect the taxes makes it not worth the effort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJim Posted August 24, 2018 at 03:07 PM Share Posted August 24, 2018 at 03:07 PM newspapers and magazines can be bought so many different ways, including out of vending machinesThat's what we need, vending machines that sell guns and ammo. Insert your FOID/FCCL enter your PIN and CC and buy what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soylentgreen Posted August 24, 2018 at 04:22 PM Share Posted August 24, 2018 at 04:22 PM And...another thing...this tax puts gun-related businesses in Cook at a massive disadvantage. Yeah, I think that may have been part of the decision. If they can't legislatively keep gun stores out of Cook County, an activist judge can help to tax them out of Cook County. If they really believe that, they are dumber than I thought. They may be able to get rid of the gun shops in Cook County, but they'll never be able to get the guns out. Funny thing is, they're keeping all the gang murder and destroying the revenue generated by the legal trade of guns. Truly idiotic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JTHunter Posted August 24, 2018 at 06:35 PM Share Posted August 24, 2018 at 06:35 PM And...another thing...this tax puts gun-related businesses in Cook at a massive disadvantage. Yeah, I think that may have been part of the decision. If they can't legislatively keep gun stores out of Cook County, an activist judge can help to tax them out of Cook County. If they really believe that, they are dumber than I thought. They may be able to get rid of the gun shops in Cook County, but they'll never be able to get the guns out. Funny thing is, they're keeping all the gang murder and destroying the revenue generated by the legal trade of guns. Truly idiotic. Whoever said that Chicago politicians were NOT "idiots"?? Not me !! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gearsmithy Posted August 24, 2018 at 06:44 PM Share Posted August 24, 2018 at 06:44 PM Whoever said that Chicago politicians were NOT "idiots"?? No-one.... ever... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmcc Posted August 24, 2018 at 11:03 PM Share Posted August 24, 2018 at 11:03 PM Democrats complain that having to show ID to vote is racist. I'd agree that showing ID to carry is no different. Most places that have voted ID provide voter ID cards for free. How much in total did your carry ID cost you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flynn Posted August 26, 2018 at 08:12 PM Share Posted August 26, 2018 at 08:12 PM Democrats complain that having to show ID to vote is racist. I'd agree that showing ID to carry is no different. Most places that have voted ID provide voter ID cards for free. How much in total did your carry ID cost you? It's my understanding that every state that requires an ID to vote will provide that ID free of charge if you claim you can't afford it you also have the option to vote in absentee in most if not all those states, absentee voting doesn't mandate showing an ID. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmcc Posted August 26, 2018 at 08:49 PM Share Posted August 26, 2018 at 08:49 PM It's my understanding that every state that requires an ID to vote will provide that ID free of charge if you claim you can't afford it you also have the option to vote in absentee in most if not all those states, absentee voting doesn't mandate showing an ID.In my opinion, absentee voting should be prohibited. Opens a huge door for voter fraud. My opinion is you go to the poll and vote on election day. If you can not make it to the poll, that not the problem of the government. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tricolor Posted August 27, 2018 at 02:57 AM Share Posted August 27, 2018 at 02:57 AM show of hands - who actually expected a trial level court in crook county to rule otherwise? This will be decided at the appellate level. We need precedent, not a ruling that can be ignored elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolnick Posted August 27, 2018 at 12:21 PM Share Posted August 27, 2018 at 12:21 PM I don't see how the argument that it's like a poll tax can be refuted. The federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax was created in 1919. It adds 10% to the sale price of pistols and revolvers and 11% to the sale price of ammunition and to firearms other than pistols and revolvers. And as an afterthought: 1) the poll tax was LEGAL until a constitutional amendment made it illegal; 2) I believe it was conservationists who proposed the FAET with the revenue to be earmarked for management of game animals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
2A4Cook Posted August 27, 2018 at 02:14 PM Share Posted August 27, 2018 at 02:14 PM Cases haven't taken five years to resolve in the Circuit Court of Cook County since the early 90's. The length of time this case took, and how long the judge took to issue a ruling, tell you quite a bit right there. Funny how they also ensured that the Appellate Court won't be able to consider the arguments until after the election. This state literally stinks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigJim Posted August 27, 2018 at 02:56 PM Share Posted August 27, 2018 at 02:56 PM It's my understanding that every state that requires an ID to vote will provide that ID free of charge if you claim you can't afford it you also have the option to vote in absentee in most if not all those states, absentee voting doesn't mandate showing an ID.In my opinion, absentee voting should be prohibited. Opens a huge door for voter fraud. My opinion is you go to the poll and vote on election day. If you can not make it to the poll, that not the problem of the government. And because I am handicapped and have limited mobility I should be denied the right to vote if I choose the not to endure the pain associated with a trip to the polls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffrey Posted August 27, 2018 at 03:36 PM Share Posted August 27, 2018 at 03:36 PM It's my understanding that every state that requires an ID to vote will provide that ID free of charge if you claim you can't afford it you also have the option to vote in absentee in most if not all those states, absentee voting doesn't mandate showing an ID.In my opinion, absentee voting should be prohibited. Opens a huge door for voter fraud. My opinion is you go to the poll and vote on election day. If you can not make it to the poll, that not the problem of the government. And because I am handicapped and have limited mobility I should be denied the right to vote if I choose the not to endure the pain associated with a trip to the polls? What about those who are fighting over sea's for your right to vote? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted August 27, 2018 at 04:28 PM Share Posted August 27, 2018 at 04:28 PM I don't see how the argument that it's like a poll tax can be refuted. The federal Firearms and Ammunition Excise Tax was created in 1919. It adds 10% to the sale price of pistols and revolvers and 11% to the sale price of ammunition and to firearms other than pistols and revolvers. And as an afterthought: 1) the poll tax was LEGAL until a constitutional amendment made it illegal; 2) I believe it was conservationists who proposed the FAET with the revenue to be earmarked for management of game animals. You have the name, year wrong and also how this tax differs. It's the Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Act of 1937. It's considered a "user pay, user benefit" tax and was supported by sportsmen of the day and for the most part still is. It's been amended several times(includes archery equipment) and is considered one of the best things as a country we've done for wildlife conservation. Fishing equipment was added to the fund in 1950 Dingell-Johnson Act and boating fuel tax in 1984 Wallop-Breaux Amendment. The Federal Duck Stamp and state's duck stamps, habitat stamps, etc. are other successes. What benefit will Cook Co. ever be able to prove from this tax? Sad thing is it's kind of a mystery what IL has done with their Pittman-Robertson funds over the last 8-10 yrs. We may have actually forfeited some when not having a budget. Also, what has been allowed to happen under Madigan to the IL DNR and the lands "we own" and they manage is a crime Over $20 billion to date from sportsmenhttps://www.doi.gov/pressreleases/secretary-zinke-announces-more-that-11-billion-sportsmen-conservation The acthttps://legcounsel.house.gov/Comps/Pittman-robertson%20Wildlife%20Restoration%20Act.pdf Changeshttps://www.fws.gov/laws/lawsdigest/fawild.html How it workshttps://www.mdwfp.com/conservation/who-pays-for-it/pittman-robertson-act.aspx How does the Pittman-Robertson Act work? The excise tax is set by law at 11% of the wholesale price for long guns and ammunition and 10% for handguns. It is paid by manufacturers, producers, and importers and applies to all commercial sales and imports, whether their purpose is hunting, sport shooting, or personal defense. This tax is handled by the Department of the Treasury, which turns the funds over to the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (USFWS) for apportionments to states. How are Pittman-Robertson Funds distributed to states?USFWS deposits P-R revenue into a special account called the Wildlife Restoration Trust Fund. These funds are made available to states the year following their collection. Funds are then distributed through the following process:1) $8 million is dedicated to Enhanced Hunter Education programs, including the construction or maintenance of public target ranges.2) $3 million is set aside for projects that require cooperation among the states.3) One-half of the excise tax collected on handguns is set aside for Basic Hunter Education programs. The remainder of the trust fund is then divided in half with 50 percent apportioned to states based on the land area of the state in proportion to the total land area of the country. The remaining 50 percent is apportioned based on the number of individual paid hunting license holders in the state in proportion to the national total.80 Years of Pittman-Robertsonhttp://www.ducks.org/conservation/public-policy/celebrating-80-years-of-the-pittman-robertson-act Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots & Tyrants Posted August 27, 2018 at 06:09 PM Share Posted August 27, 2018 at 06:09 PM I wonder if this will lead to Cabelas in Hoffman Estates closingI doubt it. Guns aren't their only business. The last time I was there, the tax was in effect and the gun counter was very busy. A small shop like Maxon is a different story. They're in an out-of-the way location and they don't have the benefit of someone shopping for fishing tackle who may saunter over to the gun counter. Maxon's range always seem to be full and people are still buying ammo. Them and Shore are your only options on the "near" North/North West side. This may kill the would be Niles Gun range and several other proposed ranges in and around Chicagoland though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kevinmcc Posted August 28, 2018 at 12:38 AM Share Posted August 28, 2018 at 12:38 AM Maxon's range always seem to be full and people are still buying ammo. Them and Shore are your only options on the "near" North/North West side. This may kill the would be Niles Gun range and several other proposed ranges in and around Chicagoland though. If I was a range, I would not sell ammo, I would rent them ammo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoadyRunner Posted August 28, 2018 at 12:43 AM Share Posted August 28, 2018 at 12:43 AM $$$$ What other Constitutional right can be taxed, and that tax be held as Constitutional? I’ll wait.... $$$$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolnick Posted August 28, 2018 at 01:52 PM Share Posted August 28, 2018 at 01:52 PM You have the name, year wrong and also how this tax differs. It's the Pittman-Robertson Wildlife Restoration Act of 1937. Me bad. I stand corrected -- and thank you for the education. That being said, my response was to highlight the fact that constitutional rights have been taxed -- even with the blessing of those taxed. That being said, there is a vast difference between a tax that is enacted for the benefit of the taxpayer and one that is enacted for the harassment of the citizen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skolnick Posted August 28, 2018 at 02:09 PM Share Posted August 28, 2018 at 02:09 PM $$$$ What other Constitutional right can be taxed, and that tax be held as Constitutional? I’ll wait.... $$$$You may be assessed a filing fee to run for certain public offices. You have a constitutional right to an attorney, but an attorney may have to pay several hundred dollars to take the bar exam, so indirectly, you pay for that fee. You have a constitutional right to a jury trial, but in many instances, especially for civil cases, there is a fee to request a jury trial. You have a constitutional right to peaceably assemble and to petition the government for a redress of grievances, but if that assembly and petition takes the form of a march, you may need a permit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriots & Tyrants Posted August 28, 2018 at 06:13 PM Share Posted August 28, 2018 at 06:13 PM Maxon's range always seem to be full and people are still buying ammo. Them and Shore are your only options on the "near" North/North West side. This may kill the would be Niles Gun range and several other proposed ranges in and around Chicagoland though.If I was a range, I would not sell ammo, I would rent them ammo. "The Brass stays on site ; it never leaves the store". Yeah that could work Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bushy223 Posted August 28, 2018 at 07:42 PM Share Posted August 28, 2018 at 07:42 PM Skolnik said: “That being said, there is a vast difference between a tax that is enacted for the benefit of the taxpayer and one that is enacted for the harassment of the citizen.” This is a very simple, and succinct statement of the purpose of the Cook County tax. Unfortunately, it is within the power of the State to tax. The consequences of an ujujust or unpopular tax should be paid at the polls. In Cook it will not. Tea anyone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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