Reduced Trigger Pull Weight is a Huge Legal No No!

[marathonrunner]

Guys, the article below was very sobering and now I find myself in a predicament. The following carry guns have these modifications:

 

1. MP 9mm Shield: 4.9lbs (Factory is 6.5) (Apex Duty Carry maybe this is ok then)

2. Glock 19: 4.0 lbs (factory 5.5)

3. Springfield XD9 MOD2 Stock right now but ordered trigger kit to bring it down to 4lbs from 6.5

 

 

The first problem I have is I always buy 2 of each pistol models, one to use and one to put away and I do the same mod on each one. So both my G19's are now just range toys. Uggg! I tossed out my stock Glock 19 parts so it will cost me probably $50 to bring each back to stock configuration. My Shield (only gun i did not buy two each) I also threw out my factory stock sear, sear spring, trigger, safety plunger, stock safety plunger spring, factory polymer trigger,,,,,,,uggg it will cost me probably $100 to get that back to stock......I am canceling my competition spring kit for my XD9 immediately and not touching it. My Apex Duty Enhanced costed $175 dollars and by the time I buy my stock parts, I will be almost better off buying a new Shield. However, my Walther PPQ's I have left completely stock because the stock trigger on that is already 4 lbs and it is the best shooting striker fired I ever owned. It is only a hair less accurate than my tricked out G34 and CZP09. The PPQ is exactly the same size as my G19's so I probably will use that for CCW along with Springfield.

 

I got two Ruger SR22's (one has about 1000 rounds, the other has never been shot, am willing to sell for $300 each) that are totally stock and I think what I may do is trade them in for a new 9mm Shield. I am not spending anymore money on guns. One SR22 is black, the other is Purple

 

FOR ANYBODY THAT THINKS REDUCING YOUR CCW TRIGGER WEIGHT IS OK, THE LINK BELOW WILL HAVE YOU SHAKING IN YOUR BOOTS. IT TOTALLY CONVINCED ME MODIFYING ANY TRIGGER IS REALLY A BAD THING TO DO. THE ARTICLE SAID TO MAKE IT SMOOTHER IS FINE BUT TO REDUCE THE WEIGHT YOU ARE ASKING FOR TROUBLE AND YOU CAN NOT ONLY FACE CIVIL LIABILITY BUT CRIMINAL! I WAS NOT AWARE OF THAT SO THAT IS WHY I AM ONLY GOING TO USE A STOCK PISTOL FOR CCW. I REALIZE SOME OF YOU MAY THINK I AM BEING TOO CONSERVATIVE BUT I ALWAYS VERY CAREFUL. I HAD NO IDEA THAT REDUCING TRIGGER PULL COULD HAVE PROFOUND IMPACT.

 

TAKING A QUOTE FROM THE ARTICLE: THIS IS THE KEY QUESTION:

 

 

"To apply that logic to self-defense gun modifications, I’d say, “If you have to ask whether a modification or alteration to your pistol will hurt you in court, it probably will.”

 

http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications

[Hap]

I don't have any original comments on this frequently-discussed topic, but I think the key point in the linked article is the following:

 

 

I found no reported appellate cases where any discussion on this issue occurred in the context of a self-defense case, nor would I expect to. In order to claim self-defense, you must admit that you purposefully shot an assailant. If you intended to do so, the pull weight of the trigger and the extent of one’s training are largely irrelevant.

 

[marathonrunner]

Hap, that is certainly true but if you know how defense attorneys work, their job is to get their client off the hook and if it means lying or making something out of nothing they will. Look at George Zimmerman, yes he has done some stuff after his acquittal that seemed ________, but the fact is it was a justifyable shooting but still it cost him at least 3 years of his life, legal fees he could not afford, why give the prosecuting attorney more ammo to use against you right? I rather just leave my gun stock and have one less thing to worry about.

 

but also, the article mentioned if you were negligent in any way, like an accidental double tap because of the hair trigger, you could then be faced with manslaughter and then you would find your insurance ccw coverage null and void.

[DoverGunner]

This is going back to "the Two most Haunting words in Life" "What If"

[soundguy]

Use a gun ya like and can shoot REALLY well. I am fairly certain that trigger pull mods and home loaded rounds in a self defense shooting are total... Nonstarters. Imagine, if you will, the hesitation and delay you might experience in a long heavy pull and the possibility that you hit the wrong target because of that... Just the few degrees off that you are.

[marathonrunner]

Use a gun ya like and can shoot REALLY well. I am fairly certain that trigger pull mods and home loaded rounds in a self defense shooting are total... Nonstarters. Imagine, if you will, the hesitation and delay you might experience in a long heavy pull and the possibility that you hit the wrong target because of that... Just the few degrees off that you are.

soundguy if you read the article I don't think you would be saying what you are saying. Yes a good defense attorney could take your point but you are placing yourself behind the 8 ball already. i would much rather not leave any room for questions to be raised.

[Crypto]

I'll never understand the need to do trigger or sight upgrades to a gun that is used for self defense. It has been my experience that if the time comes when you need that weapon for its intended purpose you're not going to notice a gritty trigger, creep, heavy pull or fancy sights. You're going to yank on that thing as fast and as long as you can until the threat is over.

[BIGDEESUL]

I used to recommend that students do not modify carry guns.

 

I've since changed my point of view on the issue.

 

If you carry a weapon with a lightened trigger, can and will this be used against you in a possible criminal or civil case? Anything is possible. But if you can prove that you've consistently trained with a similar trigger pull and weight on all your guns, and you've become the post proficient with that particular setup, you're doing your best to mitigate collateral damage in a possible DGU, and being proficient and consistent is the responsible thing to do.

 

I see it as a non issue.

[marathonrunner]

I used to recommend that students do not modify carry guns. I've since changed my point of view on the issue. If you carry a weapon with a lightened trigger, can and will this be used against you in a possible criminal or civil case? Anything is possible. But if you can prove that you've consistently trained with a similar trigger pull and weight on all your guns, and you've become the post proficient with that particular setup, you're doing your best to mitigate collateral damage in a possible DGU, and being proficient and consistent is the responsible thing to do. I see it as a non issue.

Hey bigdeesul, if you read the article, I am not so sure about this. while we both know a better trigger and lighter one will lesson the chance of missing your target, the defense will try to play the jury by arguing you were negligent by reducing your trigger weight. I just think the risk of making a lighter trigger is not worth the consequences. If you read the last excerpt the author brought up a good point."To apply that logic to self-defense gun modifications, I’d say, “If you have to ask whether a modification or alteration to your pistol will hurt you in court, it probably will.”

 

If you consider that this debate has been going on for millions of years, all the more reason the above quote makes total sense.

[BIGDEESUL]

One shouldn't depend on a light trigger and crisp break for proficiency. Sure, you're groups may be a little smaller, and you may be a little quicker, but anyone who relies on a super light trigger, and can't pick up a stock striker fired pistol and put hits on target needs more training, not a lighter trigger. Plain and simple.

 

Pretty much every one of my guns has some level of trigger work. I'm not going to carry the pistols I've modified with 1.5lb triggers, but I carry my XDS with a PRP spring kit, polished internals, and sear work. I didn't modify the trigger because I couldn't hit consistently with it being stock. I just wanted to bring it in line with the rest of my carry guns for consistency.

 

Marathonrunner, yiu need to calm down and stop freaking out every time you read something on the web. Don't worry about your trigger mods. Just carry what you're proficient and confident with.

[handyflyer]

^^^^ Thanks BigD. This is getting VERY old quickly

[marathonrunner]

One shouldn't depend on a light trigger and crisp break for proficiency. Sure, you're groups may be a little smaller, and you may be a little quicker, but anyone who relies on a super light trigger, and can't pick up a stock striker fired pistol and put hits on target needs more training, not a lighter trigger. Plain and simple. Pretty much every one of my guns has some level of trigger work. I'm not going to carry the pistols I've modified with 1.5lb triggers, but I carry my XDS with a PRP spring kit, polished internals, and sear work. I didn't modify the trigger because I couldn't hit consistently with it being stock. I just wanted to bring it in line with the rest of my carry guns for consistency. Marathonrunner, yiu need to calm down and stop freaking out every time you read something on the web. Don't worry about your trigger mods. Just carry what you're proficient and confident with.

I hear you Biddeesul but I am very conservative and always like to error on caution. The article brings up many good points. I think with my Shield, if I use Apex's trigger return spring, it will bring my current 4.5lbs(thought it was 4.9lbs and the oem factory trigger return will actually make the apex lighter), to 5.5 lbs and then in spite of it being still 1.5 lbs lighter than stock, I will at least be where many others use.

[quackersmacker]

I used to recommend that students do not modify carry guns. I've since changed my point of view on the issue. If you carry a weapon with a lightened trigger, can and will this be used against you in a possible criminal or civil case? Anything is possible. But if you can prove that you've consistently trained with a similar trigger pull and weight on all your guns, and you've become the post proficient with that particular setup, you're doing your best to mitigate collateral damage in a possible DGU, and being proficient and consistent is the responsible thing to do. I see it as a non issue.

Totally agree with BigD, and his subsequent comment as well. Will defense attys raise this issue? Of course. They'll raise any issue. That doesn't translate into validity. If you're in a defensive gun use, you've got waaaaaaaaay bigger issues than trigger pull. And if your attorney can't establish that this is a matter of training, and accuracy and safety, you hired the wrong guy.

 

Nobody does a trigger job to make it easier to kill a person. I don't think that's hard to sell in the courtroom.

 

Better to focus on why and how you felt it necessary to shoot, because regardless of weight of trigger pull, 1 ounce, or 10 pounds, that gun was going to go bang, in a true defensive situation, and the bullet doesn't care about nuances.

[Gamma]

A light trigger may be questioned. A heavy trigger may be questioned. A large caliber may be questioned. A small caliber may be questioned. Too many shots may be questioned. A single shot may be questioned.

 

Anything you have done in a self defense shooting may well be questioned. If you think there is some formula of what to use for self defense that will exempt you from scrutiny you're wrong. If you think there are only particular choices that will survive scrutiny I think you're also wrong.

[quackersmacker]

A light trigger may be questioned. A heavy trigger may be questioned. A large caliber may be questioned. A small caliber may be questioned. Too many shots may be questioned. A single shot may be questioned.

 

Anything you have done in a self defense shooting may well be questioned. If you think there is some formula of what to use for self defense that will exempt you from scrutiny you're wrong. If you think there are only particular choices that will survive scrutiny I think you're also wrong.

Bingo. Absolute simple truth.

[marathonrunner]

http://www.uslawshield.com/legal-risks-of-modifying-your-trigger-pull/

 

OK< I found another article that does concur if your shoot was a justifiable one and you clearly used your weapon to shoot the bad guy, then the legal courts will not consider the weight of the trigger. However, if the bad guy raises his hands to give up and you have an accidental discharge because of the adrenalin, then you could be facing charges. In a civil court, the defense attorney could then argue you were negligent by having a reduced pull on trigger. So I guess what I take from this, if you were faced with grave danger, then it does not matter how light your trigger pull was and the fact it was modified.

 

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDJxLnQ02_Y

[ljnowel]

Do yourself a favor and don't freak out. Don't start wasting your money because of what you have read.

 

This is typical crap that some gun writer "experts" repeat because it gives them something to talk about.

 

Notice that they didn't cute examples of those things happening. Not a single one. Gee, I wonder why? If it were such a big deal you would think they would have at least one, just a single one, example to point out!

 

 

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Elmer Fudd]

The single factor that matters overall in a DGU is the training and skills of the person whose hands the pistol is in. The trigger modification issue, like the caliber choice issue, like the semi-auto vs revolver issue has been beat to death. You would be better served to invest in high quality training and focusing on the improvement of your firearm handling skills over all of the discussions on tangental topics. Invest in improving your abilities rather than toys.

[BobPistol]

I'm glad I have a Glock with a stock 5.5lb trigger.

[yyyz]

marathonrunner... >>ARE YOU AWARE IF YOU ARE INVOLVED IN A SELF DEFENSE SHOOTING AND YOUR TRIGGER WAS LIGHTENED LESS THAN FACTORY PULL YOU CAN VOID YOUR CCW INSURANCE?

 

Where is the article did you see anything about losing insurance?

[Ericshere]

Im thinking I need to shave off my menacing looking mustache...

[bmyers]

Anything can and will be questioned in a shooting. Look at the recent discussion about the number of shots fired http://illinoiscarry.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=55232&hl=

 

I think instead of worrying about the trigger the time is better spent making sure you have the ability to contact a good lawyer who will help you navigate all the issues.

[Frank]

...and an opposing attorney can say I was a negligent, blood thirsty baby killer for using a high-capacity clip full of dum-dum cop-killer bullets in my assault pistol...

[marathonrunner]

Do yourself a favor and don't freak out. Don't start wasting your money because of what you have read. This is typical crap that some gun writer "experts" repeat because it gives them something to talk about. Notice that they didn't cute examples of those things happening. Not a single one. Gee, I wonder why? If it were such a big deal you would think they would have at least one, just a single one, example to point out! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

The author of my original post I believe was an attorney. The video was definitely an attorney. And the civil defense video he was also an attorney. I don't know why they did not cite examples but maybe it would be a good idea to call that law firm or the author and ask if they can furnish any proof. But nevertheless why tempt fate? Why leave anything to chance? I would feel much more comfortable leaving the gun stock then moding it and then getting whacked later.

 

The single factor that matters overall in a DGU is the training and skills of the person whose hands the pistol is in. The trigger modification issue, like the caliber choice issue, like the semi-auto vs revolver issue has been beat to death. You would be better served to invest in high quality training and focusing on the improvement of your firearm handling skills over all of the discussions on tangental topics. Invest in improving your abilities rather than toys.

took me a long time for this to sink in but you are absolutely right. The DVD handgun training video I bought said the same thing, that he has seen so many shooters buy expensive guns but then won't spend a dime on training. Part of the reason I have not is because I want to only learn from someone who is nationally known or somebody who is really good. If I can find somebody who can do 1" groups at 75feet with a stock Glock 19, I will surely hire that instructor. I have yet to see one who can. Jerry Metcluf or whatever his name is, he can hit 600 yards with a 3" revolver, now that is amazing.

[borgranta]

Does this mean that a shooting sport competitor could face prison time because he or she was forced to use her competition gun to defend his or her life?

[marathonrunner]

Does this mean that a shooting sport competitor could face prison time because he or she was forced to use her competition gun to defend his or her life.

if it happened inside your home I don't think that would be an issue if that was the only thing you had around at the time. And based on what the one link I posted, if it was a clean shoot and you intended to pull the trigger the mods would not play a factor. It would only play a factor if it was an accidental or negligent discharge, then you could face both criminal and civil liability

[borgranta]

What about if the competitor was on the way home from a competition and was forced to use the competition gun?

[BIGDEESUL]

 

If I can find somebody who can do 1" groups at 75feet with a stock Glock 19, I will surely hire that instructor.

You can bring a stock glock 19 to my next class you sign up for.

[barryware]

<snip>

 

Part of the reason I have not is because I want to only learn from someone who is nationally known or somebody who is really good. If I can find somebody who can do 1" groups at 75feet with a stock Glock 19, I will surely hire that instructor. I have yet to see one who can. Jerry Metcluf or whatever his name is, he can hit 600 yards with a 3" revolver, now that is amazing.

There is a lot more to learn in regard to training than being a good shot. True.. you have to be able to hit what you are aiming at and know your target but I don't think the criteria to judge an instructor on is how accurate they shoot.

 

If someone is a competition shooter, that does not qualify them to be an instructor.

 

Hitting center mass to stop the threat does not require a 1" group @ 25 yards. This assumes you don't fumble your rig getting it out of the holster, shoot yourself in the a$$, freeze in the heat of the moment, get shot dead by the perps partner @ your 3:00, or just make a bad decision to begin with. Most of the risks of the previous statement can be dramatically lessened with training & practice.

[marathonrunner]

BidDeesul are you serious about that? You can put all 15 rounds 1" group at 75 feet with a stock glock? I bet you won't do that with a Springfield XD9 Mod2 because that has a ton of creep and 6.5lb trigger pull. If you could indeed I would certainly give it some consideration.