Jump to content


Photo

Illinois instructor received audit today


  • Please log in to reply
50 replies to this topic

#1 Jack1911

  • Members
  • 15 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 14

Posted 01 August 2017 - 05:48 PM

Just wanted to share some information with Illinois Carry. The Illinois State Police met with me today. There were no complaints issued on me, they stated they are just gathering information. From speaking with other instructors, they are making rounds with other instructors as well.

Just curious if any other instructors received an audit as well.

50% of the time was an actual audit, the other 50% was asking feedback from me on my opinion of certain subjects.

 



#2 OrlandInstructor

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 264 posts
  • Joined: 01-January 14

Posted 01 August 2017 - 05:57 PM

What part of the state are you located?

#3 Talonap

    Member

  • Members
  • 3,132 posts
  • Joined: 12-July 08

Posted 01 August 2017 - 05:59 PM

Just wanted to share some information with Illinois Carry. The Illinois State Police met with me today. There were no complaints issued on me, they stated they are just gathering information. From speaking with other instructors, they are making rounds with other instructors as well.

Just curious if any other instructors received an audit as well.

50% of the time was an actual audit, the other 50% was asking feedback from me on my opinion of certain subjects.

 

 

Hope you didn't answer anything not pertaining to the audit ...



#4 Jack1911

  • Members
  • 15 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 14

Posted 01 August 2017 - 06:02 PM

What part of the state are you located?

Central Illinois



#5 Jack1911

  • Members
  • 15 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 14

Posted 01 August 2017 - 06:10 PM

What is ironic about it, in THEIR own words, it is very difficult for them to REQUIRE us to do anything, they can ONLY recommend, because they cannot rewrite the law. I believe they are gathering information with the intent to propose changes. 



#6 mauserme

    Eliminating the element of surprise one bill at a time.

  • Admin
  • 17,379 posts
  • Joined: 20-February 09

Posted 01 August 2017 - 06:27 PM

Please send me a PM with any of the things you think they might want to change.


.
Link to ILGA House Audio/Video..........Link to ILGA Senate Audio/Video ..........Advanced Digital Media Link ..........Blue Room Stream Link

Let all bitterness and wrath and anger and clamor and slander be put away from you, along with all malice. (Ephesians 4:31)

 

On 5/25/2017, Superintendent Eddie Johnson predicted a 50% reduction is Chicago violence within 3 years of SB1722 becoming law.  The bill was signed into law on 6/23/2017. The clock is now ticking.


#7 Craigcelia

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 1,939 posts
  • Joined: 05-November 09

Posted 01 August 2017 - 10:33 PM

Wow that's a first I heard of anyone being audited. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Craig

NRA / ISRA Life Member
CCL Classes

 

 


#8 sirflyguy

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 2,713 posts
  • Joined: 28-September 09

Posted 02 August 2017 - 06:36 AM

Wow that's a first I heard of anyone being audited. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me, too.


Defensive Firearms Coach (DFC)

Fundamentals of Home Defense Handgun

Fundamentals of Concealed Carry
NRA-Certified Basic Pistol Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection In the Home Instructor
NRA-Certified Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor 
NRA-Certified Chief Range Safety Officer

IL FCCA Approved Instructor
http://www.mlftraining.com
https://www.facebook...ps/mlftraining/


#9 Jeffrey

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,194 posts
  • Joined: 10-January 08

Posted 02 August 2017 - 06:55 AM

Hide the dag


...and justice for all

YOUR WALLET, the only place Democrats care to drill

#10 Mr. Fife

    Nip it

  • Members
  • 13,055 posts
  • Joined: 03-July 10

Posted 02 August 2017 - 06:59 AM

So this wasn't during a class you were teaching, they just showed up to talk to you?

Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?

 

 


#11 Jack1911

  • Members
  • 15 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 14

Posted 02 August 2017 - 07:23 AM

So this wasn't during a class you were teaching, they just showed up to talk to you?

No, NOT during a class.  They called me around 09:30 am and asked if I could meet with them for a random audit. I said sure. They stated that they had done several already. They showed up at 2pm. Requested copies of all my rosters. Asked to see my B27 target. Asked about class times and lunch breaks. Asked where I obtained my curriculum from  and if I liked it. Asked my opinion about the state having only one curriculum for everyone to use. Asked about continuing education, my thoughts on having an online portal for instructors to submit certificates, rather than the student having to submit it. Asked about the shooting exercises I do with my students, if I have a range officer with me. Also asked if I had any suggestions on making it better.



#12 HeavyDuty

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 968 posts
  • Joined: 01-October 13

Posted 02 August 2017 - 08:09 AM

That actually sounds positive.

#13 chislinger

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 5,473 posts
  • Joined: 21-November 13

Posted 02 August 2017 - 08:37 AM

I don't know, this could very well be to form a narrative that "Illinois CCL instructors think more training should be required to get a CCL". Next thing you know they'll propose 40 hours...
"I'm not worried about following the U.S. Constitution." - Washington County, Alabama Judge Nick Williams

#14 NRApistol

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 28-August 13

Posted 02 August 2017 - 10:15 AM

"Requested copies of all my rosters."  This one aggravates me to no end.  Why must I keep redundant  records?  The ISP is PAID a 2A $150 TAX, they should be responsible for record keeping.  A better system to protect an instructor from having a certificate counterfeited in his or her name would be welcomed. With the photo software it can`t be that difficult to copy a certificate and add any name you want.

 

"the state having only one curriculum for everyone to use."  Definitely against this one.  Every instructor  has his or her unique set of talents and abilities.  Instructors should be able to make adjustments to their curriculum to fit the students.  PPOTH instructors may see things differently than a BP instructor.

 

"portal for instructors to submit certificates"  This one MIGHT have some merit.  This could help instructors protect themselves from  counterfeited certificate used in his or her name.  If an instructor submits the certs there should be no need to keep redundant  records or be audited.  Problem is, would that put some sort of limit on when a student could file?  A better system would be to contact the instructor when the student files and have the instructor verify he or she supplied the training and certificate.

 

" Asked about the shooting exercises I do with my students"   That`s none of their business.  If the ISP wants to become shooting instructors they need to take an Instructor Development Workshop like everyone else.  All the student needs is 21 holes in an approved target.  How an instructor gets them there is up to the individual instructor.

 

"I`m from the government and I`m here to help you"  Sorry, I don`t buy it.


Edited by NRApistol, 02 August 2017 - 10:16 AM.


#15 Tango7

    Member

  • Members
  • 4,688 posts
  • Joined: 06-November 08

Posted 02 August 2017 - 07:16 PM

The ISP is PAID a 2A $150 TAX, they should be responsible for record keeping.


Remember, only a portion goes to actually fund CCW. Much of it restores elective cuts to the FSB made by Blago and Quinn, as well as elective cuts made by Quinn to the State Crime Lab.

(At least) $32,000,000 cut from the ISP by Blago, and at least $25,000,000 cut by Quinn.
You will not 'rise to the occasion', you will default to your level of training - plan accordingly.

Despite their rallying around us at election time, honoring only 8 hours of Illinois' 40+ hour law enforcement class towards a 16 hour requirement shows the contempt that our elected officials hold us in.

#16 JDW

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 238 posts
  • Joined: 10-December 16

Posted 02 August 2017 - 07:37 PM

I don't know, this could very well be to form a narrative that "Illinois CCL instructors think more training should be required to get a CCL". Next thing you know they'll propose 40 hours...

 

 

And triple the price for classes, and license application.....Oh my!!! 


JDW

 

Member of an awesome sportsman club

Pro2A forever

#Respect Military and LEO thank you for your service


#17 AuroraInstructor

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,167 posts
  • Joined: 28-May 13

Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:06 PM

I just got a call this morning for an audit.  Going next week.  I was told to bring my rosters and curriculum.


http://IllinoisGunPros.com
http://facebook.com/...ealedCarryClass
State Certified Concealed Carry Trainer / NRA Certified Instructor


#18 cola490

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 985 posts
  • Joined: 31-October 13

Posted 11 October 2017 - 01:35 PM

Prepping for renewals?


NRA LIFE MEMBER

#19 drumgod

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 435 posts
  • Joined: 26-January 13

Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:17 PM

"Requested copies of all my rosters."  This one aggravates me to no end.  Why must I keep redundant  records?  The ISP is PAID a 2A $150 TAX, they should be responsible for record keeping.  A better system to protect an instructor from having a certificate counterfeited in his or her name would be welcomed. With the photo software it can`t be that difficult to copy a certificate and add any name you want. ...

 

+1 this.

 

More importantly: They already have a database of ccl applicants... Do we really want them compiling a list of "people with training".  Do they even have a right to ask for this?

 

I'd be pretty PO'ed if I took a training course and found out my instructor subsequently handed over my personal information to a random government agency.  The fact that you took a course is none of their business. It's no concern of theirs until I actually apply for a ccl.

 

Edited to add: If they are asking for rosters because of a fear of counterfeit certs then give the instructor a list of questionable applicants under his/her name and have them confirm training.


Edited by drumgod, 11 October 2017 - 02:23 PM.


#20 NRApistol

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts
  • Joined: 28-August 13

Posted 11 October 2017 - 02:42 PM


" If they are asking for rosters because of a fear of counterfeit certs then give the instructor a list of questionable applicants under his/her name and have them confirm training. "

 

That makes too much sense.  So far a tall order for the for the way the ISP has handled the CC process.

 

Does anyone know of any penalty for refusing to comply with this ISP request?  

 



#21 Paints-n-cows

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 259 posts
  • Joined: 12-October 13

Posted 11 October 2017 - 06:49 PM

I've got one on Friday morning


"If you shoot, shoot to kill. If you just wound them, they aren't going to be impressed. Most of them have been shot before." Sam Elliott in the "Quick and the Dead", 1987

#22 Mr. Fife

    Nip it

  • Members
  • 13,055 posts
  • Joined: 03-July 10

Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:11 PM

I want to make sure my rosters are complete in case of an audit. Does anyone remember all the line items for the rosters?

Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?

 

 


#23 Mick G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 17

Posted 11 October 2017 - 08:16 PM

"Requested copies of all my rosters."  This one aggravates me to no end.  Why must I keep redundant  records?  The ISP is PAID a 2A $150 TAX, they should be responsible for record keeping.  A better system to protect an instructor from having a certificate counterfeited in his or her name would be welcomed. With the photo software it can`t be that difficult to copy a certificate and add any name you want.

 

"the state having only one curriculum for everyone to use."  Definitely against this one.  Every instructor  has his or her unique set of talents and abilities.  Instructors should be able to make adjustments to their curriculum to fit the students.  PPOTH instructors may see things differently than a BP instructor.

 

"portal for instructors to submit certificates"  This one MIGHT have some merit.  This could help instructors protect themselves from  counterfeited certificate used in his or her name.  If an instructor submits the certs there should be no need to keep redundant  records or be audited.  Problem is, would that put some sort of limit on when a student could file?  A better system would be to contact the instructor when the student files and have the instructor verify he or she supplied the training and certificate.

 

" Asked about the shooting exercises I do with my students"   That`s none of their business.  If the ISP wants to become shooting instructors they need to take an Instructor Development Workshop like everyone else.  All the student needs is 21 holes in an approved target.  How an instructor gets them there is up to the individual instructor.

 

"I`m from the government and I`m here to help you"  Sorry, I don`t buy it.

I agree with you 100% but my instructor just put my target out to 10 yards and said shoot. After I put 21 holes in the X center mass circle I said "That's 21". He said put 9 more into it. He said that I had to put 30 rounds downrange even though I had achieved the 21 needed. I'm not bragging but it's only 30 feet. My point is my instructor said the next day that 30 rounds had to be fired. I didn't care, what's 9 more rounds? After I finished I cheered on a woman who had never shot a gun, telling her "you can do this, that's a bad man that wants to hurt you". Right after I said that she hit the X. I said "he's not going to get up". She was working at the 7 yard distance and was scared. She eventually calmed down and passed.

 

Maybe that's what its all about, differences in curriculum. I know when I put in my certificate I didn't put in CCT with my instructors ID number and it said invalid CCT number. I called my instructor and asked what was up and he asked did you put in CCT? I guess that happens a lot according to him.



#24 Mr. Fife

    Nip it

  • Members
  • 13,055 posts
  • Joined: 03-July 10

Posted 11 October 2017 - 10:12 PM

Who was your instructor?

Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?
Have all boated who fish?

 

 


#25 Mick G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 17

Posted 12 October 2017 - 06:39 AM

I really don't want to say because in early posts I told of how most of the class was texting and they should have been put in line. Most were not paying any attention to the class. Plus we had a very heated exchange over someone who broke into your house and he said "you have to see what their intentions are." With the incident that happened a few days ago, now I'm SURE I was right to say "I think that's wrong" http://abc7chicago.c...e-home/2507325/ which led to a 10 minute nonsense discussion. I'm going to have to plead the 5th on your question, sorry about that.

 

He was a good guy but was wrong on a couple of things. He was about 95% accurate but that was the curriculum. Had I know that the home invader thing was leading to a "sell" for insurance, I would have just been quiet like the rest of the class. I passed, that's all that matters and I don't want to drag my instructors name through the dirt. He was a good instructor if you were paying attention and was right there with a follow up call after within 2 minutes after I had a hard time with the CCT number application issue BS. I don't want to post anything that possible could get this guy in any trouble, he was a good instructor if you were paying attention and knew I was a very experienced shooter. That's why my target was put out to 10 yards. 30 rounds and done but I figured I would give the scared woman some encouragement. She was actually shaking but it was the first time she actually had a gun in her hand. She will need to practice shooting a bit but we all start somewhere.



#26 InterestedBystander

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 3,339 posts
  • Joined: 15-March 13

Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:05 AM

...he was a good instructor if you were paying attention and knew I was a very experienced shooter. That's why my target was put out to 10 yards. 30 rounds and done...

So the instructor did not have you also shoot at 5 and 7 yards? Yet he did require the 30 rounds after you put the first 21 in as discussed earlier.

...(c ) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of certification by a certified instructor that the applicant passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm consisting of:
(1) a minimum of 30 rounds; and
(2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds
from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Department.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 12 October 2017 - 07:06 AM.

NRA Life Member
ISRA Member

#27 3ddiver

    Member

  • Members
  • 1,521 posts
  • Joined: 08-January 09

Posted 12 October 2017 - 07:23 AM

...he was a good instructor if you were paying attention and knew I was a very experienced shooter. That's why my target was put out to 10 yards. 30 rounds and done...

So the instructor did not have you also shoot at 5 and 7 yards? Yet he did require the 30 rounds after you put the first 21 in as discussed earlier.
...(c ) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of certification by a certified instructor that the applicant passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm consisting of:
(1) a minimum of 30 rounds; and
(2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds
from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Department.
Instructors like that are the reason instructors are getting audits. Most likely there are more problems with those instructors classes. Sad but there are bound to be some who don't follow the law.

#28 Mick G

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 357 posts
  • Joined: 26-September 17

Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:15 AM

 

...he was a good instructor if you were paying attention and knew I was a very experienced shooter. That's why my target was put out to 10 yards. 30 rounds and done...

So the instructor did not have you also shoot at 5 and 7 yards? Yet he did require the 30 rounds after you put the first 21 in as discussed earlier.

...(c ) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of certification by a certified instructor that the applicant passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm consisting of:
(1) a minimum of 30 rounds; and
(2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds
from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Department.

 

I never shot at 5 or 7 yards. It was 30 shots at 10 yards but during a break in class long before we drove out to the range I talked to him and said " I have been shooting for 40 years". I went through the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program and was a Pro-Marksman at 11 years old and a Marksman at 12. That was with a .22 in front of NRA qualifications people. My dad didn't score my targets but I had been on a gun range when I was 9.

 

Yes my first 21 rounds were in a 2" group and yet I did have to fire 9 more. I figured 21 hits and I was done. I brought a polymer pistol that I haven't shot in a couple of years. It wasn't like I brought one of my 1911s. I used a 40 cal because those range bullets make nice wadcutter like circles. My take on it is if I can hit at 10 yards then why even bother with 5 or 7? I wasn't going to argue a moot point but thought alright I passed, go home and eat. That first day with range was closer to 10 hours.

 

"Instructors like that are the reason instructors are getting audits. Most likely there are more problems with those instructors classes. Sad but there are bound to be some who don't follow the law."

 

That's the reason I wont post any names. The last thing I need is for my certificate to be revoked because protocol wasn't followed.



#29 Craigcelia

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 1,939 posts
  • Joined: 05-November 09

Posted 12 October 2017 - 08:23 AM

 

 

Does anyone know of any penalty for refusing to comply with this ISP request?  

 

 

Just a guess....you will be removed from the program?  No more instructor.


Craig

NRA / ISRA Life Member
CCL Classes

 

 


#30 gangrel

    Member

  • Supporting Members Team
  • 2,824 posts
  • Joined: 13-April 11

Posted 12 October 2017 - 10:52 AM

  ...he was a good instructor if you were paying attention and knew I was a very experienced shooter. That's why my target was put out to 10 yards. 30 rounds and done... So the instructor did not have you also shoot at 5 and 7 yards? Yet he did require the 30 rounds after you put the first 21 in as discussed earlier. ...(c ) An applicant for a new license shall provide proof of certification by a certified instructor that the applicant passed a live fire exercise with a concealable firearm consisting of: (1) a minimum of 30 rounds; and (2) 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Department.   I never shot at 5 or 7 yards. It was 30 shots at 10 yards but during a break in class long before we drove out to the range I talked to him and said " I have been shooting for 40 years". I went through the NRA Marksmanship Qualification Program and was a Pro-Marksman at 11 years old and a Marksman at 12. That was with a .22 in front of NRA qualifications people. My dad didn't score my targets but I had been on a gun range when I was 9.   Yes my first 21 rounds were in a 2" group and yet I did have to fire 9 more. I figured 21 hits and I was done. I brought a polymer pistol that I haven't shot in a couple of years. It wasn't like I brought one of my 1911s. I used a 40 cal because those range bullets make nice wadcutter like circles. My take on it is if I can hit at 10 yards then why even bother with 5 or 7? I wasn't going to argue a moot point but thought alright I passed, go home and eat. That first day with range was closer to 10 hours.   "Instructors like that are the reason instructors are getting audits. Most likely there are more problems with those instructors classes. Sad but there are bound to be some who don't follow the law."   That's the reason I wont post any names. The last thing I need is for my certificate to be revoked because protocol wasn't followed.
I don't know about the rest of your class, but from what you said, this guy tailored his lecture on use of force to make an insurance sales pitch, and had you shoot a course of fire that was more challenging than required by law. Now, the sales pitch...SMH...we are supposed to be teaching what the law actually says. And while I am all for making things more challenging for students that I know can handle it, the law actually spells out the course of fire. Any deviation from that is buyer beware. Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

NRA Life Member

NRA Certified Range Safety Officer

NRA Certified Instructor - Basic Pistol, PPIH, PPOH, Rifle, Shotgun, Home Firearm Safety
ISP Approved Firearm Concealed Carry Instructor

Utah CCW Instructor





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users