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The NRA and Russia


bmurph44

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From a strictly logical, pragmatic angle, let's face it: our REAL enemy/threat is China. They steal our tech, are probably (I don't have figures, but I'm pretty sure it's right) by far the world's largest manufacturer and exporter of manufactured goods, they are militarizing and flexing their muscles, trying to claim and militarize the South China Sea and thus control the world's busiest trade route. They have probed and goaded us militarily. They have a colossal popuation. The own more than $1 Trillion of our debt. We depend on them for raw materials and other essentials for our military and equipment.

 

Russia now has half our population, an economy the size of Texas', and is really only a "threat" from a nuclear standpoint. Not to minimize that -- EVER -- but China pretty soon will equal their military threat.

 

We have allied with the Russian Empire against Germany in WWI, and with the Soviet Union in WWII. We have had allies such as the Shah of Iran, Manuel Noriega, and even (now) Saudi Arabia when it suited our security needs. It is in BOTH our interests to cooperate with Russia as a counter to China. And when I say that, I mean with NATO, as well. It will take the US and all of Europe, along with Japan and South Korea, to counter the Chinese threat and keep them "honest." Nothing political at all there; simply pragmatic.

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This is a very interesting case. I'm still wrapping my head around the facts, but it's confusing how what sounds like lobbying becomes a crime if you aren't a USA citizen. I mean, even in my corporation we hire political lobbyists to influence politicians. In the globalization of today's economy, I could see criminal cases like this becoming more common.

 

Helps to read the Indictment: https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-indictment-against-mariia-butina

I guess that's the point I'm trying to make in my long winded posts. This is how weaponized government works.

 

We have contradictory laws that both allow pay to play foreign and domestic and make it a crime.

 

The average outsider is totally ignorant to the layers of laws that are arbitrarily enforced depending on who's enforcing them.

 

People who regurgitate mainstream media talking points turn into volunteer shills perpetuating the opposing corporate and foreign interests they claim to be outraged about.

 

Look at the Dinesh D'Souza case as a perfect example.

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As far as impeachment, yes, there will be conflict. But depending on the Mueller report, that will happen EITHER WAY. Assuming indictments are handed out regarding "collusion" (Conspiracy against the US), obstruction of justice, campaign violations, ect....and he is not impeached, there will be conflict. We are already down that road.

 

As far Saudi Arabia. You are assigning a position to me, then attacking that position. I think the Saudi's are two-faced backstabbers that we can't even call "frenamies"....but we need to be in good standing with them to keep oil prices low and to keep additional footholds in the region.

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Maria Butina was staked by konstantin nikolaev Co owner of N-Trans / Globaltrans, which is a Russian and American shipping company. They have locations in Texas and Pennsylvania.

 

His partner Andrey Filatov was a low ranking Russian Military officer before starting his business career. He's also the president of the Russian Chess federation. The third partner is Nikita Mishin.

 

This has all the hallmarks of people petitioning to get sanctions lifted, not collapsing the US government. Why would you attempt to destroy an economy where you're already making money?

 

It's the economy, stupid

 

We already know Russia is trying to attack our democracy and sow distrust. Using your own logic...why if they are making money?

Maria Butina was staked by konstantin nikolaev Co owner of N-Trans / Globaltrans, which is a Russian and American shipping company. They have locations in Texas and Pennsylvania.

 

His partner Andrey Filatov was a low ranking Russian Military officer before starting his business career. He's also the president of the Russian Chess federation. The third partner is Nikita Mishin.

 

This has all the hallmarks of people petitioning to get sanctions lifted, not collapsing the US government. Why would you attempt to destroy an economy where you're already making money?

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Am I "defending her?" Typical leftist deflection tactic, and I'm not taking the bait. And no, I haven't read her texts; I'm too busy reading the FBI lovebirds' texts. You know, the ones the left claim don't say what they plainly say to anyone with half a brain and no agenda.

 

Typical leftist deflection tactic? BTW, (You said I deflected, but you end up talking about FBI lovebird text messages.) What am I deflecting from in a thread about Russia and the NRA? That I didn't have a safe full of AR's? LOL..those pics are just of the ones that are BUILT. That I'm some "infilatrator"? That is weak sauce, I could call you a Russian infiltrator, and then call your posts "typical Russian whataboutism deflection tactics". Yeah, pretty lame as it devolves into petty name calling. You want to quibble over if she is technically a spy or not...fine...just read the indictments, she is clearly playing "dual roles".

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You're making anti NRA posts, just because someone in the NRA leadership knows some Russians.

 

You're implying that the NRA is colluding with Russians to overthrow the USA. Mindless drivel.

I know, or as of lately knew, lots of people that own firearms, that vote against my Second Amendment Rights.

How many firearms you own, what type, or licenses, mean less than zero to me.

 

First, I'm not making anti-NRA posts just because someone in the NRA leadership knows some Russians. You've misconstrued both my position, and the issues/facts at hand. I just checked every post I made in this thread, and the closest I've come to attaching the NRA is when I said it has changed over the past 50 years (especially the last 25). Do you or do you not think it has changed over the past 50 years?

 

Secondly, I'm not implying that the NRA is colluding with Russia. I'm stating that a Russian infiltrated the NRA. Read the indictment...she has "dual roles"...so she is there under false pretenses. And yes, I do think Russia wants to hurt the USA.

 

Way off topic, but even among gun owners, different people interpret the 2A differently. Open vs concealed?/registration?/automatic-weapons/heavier weapons?/national guard or militia? etc.. But that is way off topic.

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This is a very interesting case. I'm still wrapping my head around the facts, but it's confusing how what sounds like lobbying becomes a crime if you aren't a USA citizen. I mean, even in my corporation we hire political lobbyists to influence politicians. In the globalization of today's economy, I could see criminal cases like this becoming more common.

 

Helps to read the Indictment: https://www.lawfareblog.com/document-indictment-against-mariia-butina

I work for a Fortune 50 company that lobbies as well, so I benefit from it...but it can cause conflicts of interests.

 

As far as a crime goes...I think that all lobbyists have to be registered. And that those lobbying for other countries need to be register as foreign agents (I think)....probably even more so if you are a foreigner. I guess it could depend on intent. If a Mexican who works for the Mexican Chamber of Cattle (I just made that up) comes to Washington trying and is trying to schmooze some people in the administration to maybe relax some tariffs on Mexican beef....it would not feel so.....devious. Still not a huge fan of lobbying...(if said decision maker is all of a sudden getting a campaign donation, and free, all expense paid, trips to Cancun....while a few tariffs are quietly dropped)...but...it is what it is (not that it should be).

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Maria Butina was staked by konstantin nikolaev Co owner of N-Trans / Globaltrans, which is a Russian and American shipping company. They have locations in Texas and Pennsylvania.

His partner Andrey Filatov was a low ranking Russian Military officer before starting his business career. He's also the president of the Russian Chess federation. The third partner is Nikita Mishin.

This has all the hallmarks of people petitioning to get sanctions lifted, not collapsing the US government. Why would you attempt to destroy an economy where you're already making money?

 

 

It's the economy, stupid

 

We already know Russia is trying to attack our democracy and sow distrust. Using your own logic...why if they are making money?

It's pretty well known Putin had an axe to grind for Hillary due to both stepping up of sanctions and her constantly challenging his legitimacy as president.

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/clinton-putin-226153

 

Putin thoroughly showed Hillary attempted to rig the election, just like she accused Putin of rigging his election. Not to mention the annexation of Crimea and the escalation of the Ukrainian civil war was partly caused by election meddling by Tony Podesta and Manafort campaigning for a pro Russian president.

 

By exposing the US to be guilty of the exact same thing the US is accusing Putin of it legitimizes him on a world stage and puts him in a better position to challenge those sanctions.

 

Don't you find it interesting that both Hillary and Trump had campaign managers with extensive connections to rigging elections and foreign influence? After the Russia thing Tony Podesta was collecting money from Saudi Arabia and contributing it to DNC SuperPacs.

 

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11779826

 

If the highly unlikely hypothetical happens where the house is flipped due to Saudi funded DNC SuperPac campaigning, Trump and Pence are thrown out and a non democratically elected Democrat is made president due to the urging of Saudi staked US media isn't that worse?

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if a fraudulently elected Russian president helps a US president get fraudulently elected only to have a non elected Saudi king help get a non elected Democrat made president? Because those are the 2 sides of this dialog.

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Funny thing - the "march" claimed to be a 501 ©(4), but was up and running in under a week. Anyone who has dealt with the process knows that getting approved that fast is impossible.

 

The number they were operating under traced back to the Gotham Pimp's Anytown front group.

 

 

 

http://i66.tinypic.com/2eyi90l.png

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Maria Butina was staked by konstantin nikolaev Co owner of N-Trans / Globaltrans, which is a Russian and American shipping company. They have locations in Texas and Pennsylvania.

His partner Andrey Filatov was a low ranking Russian Military officer before starting his business career. He's also the president of the Russian Chess federation. The third partner is Nikita Mishin.

This has all the hallmarks of people petitioning to get sanctions lifted, not collapsing the US government. Why would you attempt to destroy an economy where you're already making money?

 

We already know Russia is trying to attack our democracy and sow distrust. Using your own logic...why if they are making money?
It's pretty well known Putin had an axe to grind for Hillary due to both stepping up of sanctions and her constantly challenging his legitimacy as president.

 

https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/clinton-putin-226153

 

Putin thoroughly showed Hillary attempted to rig the election, just like she accused Putin of rigging his election. Not to mention the annexation of Crimea and the escalation of the Ukrainian civil war was partly caused by election meddling by Tony Podesta and Manafort campaigning for a pro Russian president.

 

By exposing the US to be guilty of the exact same thing the US is accusing Putin of it legitimizes him on a world stage and puts him in a better position to challenge those sanctions.

 

Don't you find it interesting that both Hillary and Trump had campaign managers with extensive connections to rigging elections and foreign influence? After the Russia thing Tony Podesta was collecting money from Saudi Arabia and contributing it to DNC SuperPacs.

 

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11779826

 

If the highly unlikely hypothetical happens where the house is flipped due to Saudi funded DNC SuperPac campaigning, Trump and Pence are thrown out and a non democratically elected Democrat is made president due to the urging of Saudi staked US media isn't that worse?

 

Wouldn't it be ironic if a fraudulently elected Russian president helps a US president get fraudulently elected only to have a non elected Saudi king help get a non elected Democrat made president? Because those are the 2 sides of this dialog.

 

 

The Republicans hold the House, the WH and the Senate. If there was some connection between John and Tony as it relates to Clinton, it would have been exposed long ago. It is innuendo to conflate to the two. You are also attempting to make a moral equivalence between our election process and Russia's. Do you think Russia has a free and fair election? Or do critics of Putin end up dead?

Plus, I don't remember Hillary asking the Saudi's to find Donald's tax returns on live TV, Nor Chelsea meeting with Saudi's at the Clinton Foundation home office trying to get dirt on Trump, then lying about it.

 

So in the end, no, I would find none of it ironic as described, and I do not see Putin being legitimized at all on the world stage.

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Maria Butina was staked by konstantin nikolaev Co owner of N-Trans / Globaltrans, which is a Russian and American shipping company. They have locations in Texas and Pennsylvania.

His partner Andrey Filatov was a low ranking Russian Military officer before starting his business career. He's also the president of the Russian Chess federation. The third partner is Nikita Mishin.

This has all the hallmarks of people petitioning to get sanctions lifted, not collapsing the US government. Why would you attempt to destroy an economy where you're already making money?

We already know Russia is trying to attack our democracy and sow distrust. Using your own logic...why if they are making money?

It's pretty well known Putin had an axe to grind for Hillary due to both stepping up of sanctions and her constantly challenging his legitimacy as president.https://www.politico.com/story/2016/07/clinton-putin-226153

Putin thoroughly showed Hillary attempted to rig the election, just like she accused Putin of rigging his election. Not to mention the annexation of Crimea and the escalation of the Ukrainian civil war was partly caused by election meddling by Tony Podesta and Manafort campaigning for a pro Russian president.

By exposing the US to be guilty of the exact same thing the US is accusing Putin of it legitimizes him on a world stage and puts him in a better position to challenge those sanctions.

Don't you find it interesting that both Hillary and Trump had campaign managers with extensive connections to rigging elections and foreign influence? After the Russia thing Tony Podesta was collecting money from Saudi Arabia and contributing it to DNC SuperPacs.https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11779826

If the highly unlikely hypothetical happens where the house is flipped due to Saudi funded DNC SuperPac campaigning, Trump and Pence are thrown out and a non democratically elected Democrat is made president due to the urging of Saudi staked US media isn't that worse?

Wouldn't it be ironic if a fraudulently elected Russian president helps a US president get fraudulently elected only to have a non elected Saudi king help get a non elected Democrat made president? Because those are the 2 sides of this dialog.

 

The Republicans hold the House, the WH and the Senate. If there was some connection between John and Tony as it relates to Clinton, it would have been exposed long ago. It is innuendo to conflate to the two. You are also attempting to make a moral equivalence between our election process and Russia's. Do you think Russia has a free and fair election? Or do critics of Putin end up dead?

Plus, I don't remember Hillary asking the Saudi's to find Donald's tax returns on live TV, Nor Chelsea meeting with Saudi's at the Clinton Foundation home office trying to get dirt on Trump, then lying about it.

 

So in the end, no, I would find none of it ironic as described, and I do not see Putin being legitimized at all on the world stage.

 

And the Obama Administration still controls the DoJ and FBI, which refuse to cooperate with congress, and Rosenstein somehow runs them like a Democratic feifdom. THEY have the info, and THEY won't release it. In fact, they're covering it up, in some cases even destroying the evidence to protect the corrupt (should be) defendants, and handing out amnesty to the wrongdoers like candy at a Halloween Party. Oh wait, no, that's all FOX News fake news (PURPLE!!!). And where the heck is Sessions??? It's like trying to find Jimmy Hoffa.

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And the Obama Administration still controls the DoJ and FBI, which refuse to cooperate with congress, and Rosenstein somehow runs them like a Democratic feifdom. THEY have the info, and THEY won't release it. In fact, they're covering it up, in some cases even destroying the evidence to protect the corrupt (should be) defendants, and handing out amnesty to the wrongdoers like candy at a Halloween Party. Oh wait, no, that's all FOX News fake news (PURPLE!!!). And where the heck is Sessions??? It's like trying to find Jimmy Hoffa.

Dude.....everyone at the top of the food chain is a Republican, appointed by Trump. Ockham's razor man...

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The Republicans hold the House, the WH and the Senate. If there was some connection between John and Tony as it relates to Clinton, it would have been exposed long ago. It is innuendo to conflate to the two. You are also attempting to make a moral equivalence between our election process and Russia's. Do you think Russia has a free and fair election? Or do critics of Putin end up dead?

Plus, I don't remember Hillary asking the Saudi's to find Donald's tax returns on live TV, Nor Chelsea meeting with Saudi's at the Clinton Foundation home office trying to get dirt on Trump, then lying about it.

 

So in the end, no, I would find none of it ironic as described, and I do not see Putin being legitimized at all on the world stage.

 

It's not inuendo, it's facts all documented and made legal by the arbitrariness of sanctioning one country and allying with another with a worse record.

 

Former administrations made arbitrary rules based on foreign governments paying them to write those rules. They are now holding the current administration to the fire for any insinuation that those arbitrary rules were broken.

 

This is how weaponized government works. You write the rules to benefit yourself and attempt to imprison your opponents. How is this not like what Russia does to Putin's opponents?

 

How many Americans have Russian nationals killed? How many Americans have Saudi nationals killed? You are aware there is a money trail that both Clinton and Obama acknowledged internally between the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Isis.

 

We need to use our diplomatic and more traditional intelligence assets to bring pressure on the governments of Qatar and Saudi Arabia, which are providing clandestine financial and logistic support to ISIL and other radical Sunni groups in the region

https://www.salon.com/2016/10/11/leaked-hillary-clinton-emails-show-u-s-allies-saudi-arabia-and-qatar-supported-isis/

 

I've pasted quotes that state Hillary herself acknowledging verbatim that she recognizes the Saudi government/kingdom supports terrorists.

 

I don't insinuate, I cite sources that the person I'm debating probably reads and sees as factual to remove bias

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11779826

The brothers seem to have no problem mixing their roles into the same pot. Tony Podesta held a Clinton campaign fundraiser at his home featuring gourmet Italian food cooked by himself and his brother, the campaign chairman. The fundraiser, by the way, came just days after Tony Podesta filed his Saudi contract with the Justice Department, a contract that included an initial project fee payment of $200,000.

 

The Saudis hired the Podesta Group in 2015 because it was getting hammered in the press over civilian casualties from its airstrikes in Yemen and its crackdown on political dissidents at home, including sentencing blogger Raif Badawi to ten years in prison and 1,000 lashes for insulting Islam. Since then, Tony Podestas fingerprints have been all over Saudi Arabias advocacy efforts in Washington DC. When Saudi Arabia executed the prominent nonviolent Shia dissident Sheikh Nimr al-Nimr, causing protests throughout the Shia world and inflaming sectarian divisions, The New York Times noted that the Podesta Group provided the newspaper with a Saudi commentator who defended the execution.

 

The Podesta-Clinton-Saudi connection should be seen in light of the recent media exposes revealing the taudry pay-to-play nature of the Clinton Foundation. Top on the list of foreign donors to the foundation is Saudi Arabia, which contributed between $10 million and $25 million.

 

What did the Saudis get for their largesse and access? Wikileaks revealed a 2009 cable by then Secretary of State Hillary Clinton saying: More needs to be done since Saudi Arabia remains a critical financial support base for Al Qaeda, the Taliban, Lashkar e-Tayyiba and other terrorist groups. Instead of sanctioning the Saudis, Clinton did the opposite: She authorized enormous quantities of weapons to be sold to them. On Christmas Eve in 2011, Hillary Clinton and her closest aides celebrated a massive $29.4 billion sale to the Saudis of over 80 F-15 fighter jets, manufactured by Boeing, a company which coincidentally contributed $900,000 to the Clinton Foundation. In a chain of enthusiastic emails, an aide exclaimed that it was not a bad Christmas present.

Maybe you can answer "why this isn't a big story?". If it's acceptable to do business with the Saudis why is it not acceptable to even discuss diplomatically what Russia would need to do to afford the same respect? If the answer is "pay money and hire your campaign manager's former company/brother/pay to player to advocate for the goodness of the kingdom literally how is this different then what Trump's being accused of? Is this really about allies, enemies and diplomacy? Or is it about money? Why wouldn't Russia want in on that gravy train?
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The Republicans hold the House, the WH and the Senate. If there was some connection between John and Tony as it relates to Clinton, it would have been exposed long ago. It is innuendo to conflate to the two. You are also attempting to make a moral equivalence between our election process and Russia's. Do you think Russia has a free and fair election? Or do critics of Putin end up dead?

Plus, I don't remember Hillary asking the Saudi's to find Donald's tax returns on live TV, Nor Chelsea meeting with Saudi's at the Clinton Foundation home office trying to get dirt on Trump, then lying about it.

 

So in the end, no, I would find none of it ironic as described, and I do not see Putin being legitimized at all on the world stage.

It's not inuendo, it's facts all documented and made legal by the arbitrariness of sanctioning one country and allying with another with a worse record.

 

Former administrations made arbitrary rules based on foreign governments paying them to write those rules. They are now holding the current administration to the fire for any insinuation that those arbitrary rules were broken.

 

This is how weaponized government works. You write the rules to benefit yourself and attempt to imprison your opponents. How is this not like what Russia does to Putin's opponents?

 

How many Americans have Russian nationals killed? How many Americans have Saudi nationals killed? You are aware there is a money trail that both Clinton and Obama acknowledged internally between the kingdom of Saudi Arabia and Isis.

 

 

 

I've pasted quotes that state Hillary herself acknowledging verbatim that she recognizes the Saudi government/kingdom supports terrorists.

 

I don't insinuate, I cite sources that the person I'm debating probably reads and sees as factual to remove bias

https://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/11779826The brothers seem to have no problem mixing their roles into the same pot. Tony Podesta held a Clinton campaign fundraiser at his home featuring gourmet Italian food cooked by himself and his brother, the campaign chairman. The fundraiser, by the way, came just days after Tony Podesta filed his Saudi contract with the Justice Department, a contract that included an initial project fee payment of $200,000. Maybe you can answer "why this isn't a big story?". If it's acceptable to do business with the Saudis why is it not acceptable to even discuss diplomatically what Russia would need to do to afford the same respect? If the answer is "pay money and hire your campaign manager's former company/brother/pay to player to advocate for the goodness of the kingdom literally how is this different then what Trump's being accused of? Is this really about allies, enemies and diplomacy? Or is it about money? Why wouldn't Russia want in on that gravy train?

 

We are way off on NRA/Russia.....

 

You are again trying to assign a position to me even though I've already stated my position on them (the Saudi's) a few posts ago. I'm not going to be the defenders of Saudi Arabia so this can be shifted to a Russia vs Saudi debate.

 

If you are asking me if all big money should be taken out of politics, yes. And again, I've already stated I'm not a huge fan of lobbying a couple of posts up from here.

 

With all of that said, I think you know the difference between Saudi Arabia and Russia. The Saudi's are the world's largest exporter of oil, AND more importantly, we have a bunch of military bases in Saudi Arabia, thus we put up with their two-faced BS, does not make it right...it makes it what it is.

 

With all of your accusations, you seem to have forgotten that Trump is POTUS......where are the Trump administration sanctions on the Saudi's? Actually, don't answer that (the answer is "there are none" anyway)...because the Saudi's have nothing to do with Russia and the NRA.

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I'm not going to be the defenders of Saudi Arabia so this can be shifted to a Russia vs Saudi debate.

 

If you are asking me if all big money should be taken out of politics, yes. And again, I've already stated I'm not a huge fan of lobbying a couple of posts up from here.

 

With all of that said, I think you know the difference between Saudi Arabia and Russia. The Saudi's are the world's largest exporter of oil, AND more importantly, we have a bunch of military bases in Saudi Arabia, thus we put up with their two-faced BS, does not make it right...it makes it what it is.

 

With all of your accusations, you seem to have forgotten that Trump is POTUS......where are the Trump administration sanctions on the Saudi's? Actually, don't answer that (the answer is "there are none" anyway)...because the Saudi's have nothing to do with Russia and the NRA.

 

My basic point is why does Trump or the NRA deserve to get the hammer dropped on them when every previous administration has done the same thing? Why are we making examples of Presidents and nonprofits now? Why are you saying that an organization that defends gun rights needs to be the organization to make an example of?

 

I have my fantasyland political views and I have my realpolitik views. Fantasyland every politician (Trump and the NRA included), corporate "campaign consultants", and politically connected nonprofits needs to be investigated and prosecuted for facilitating pay to play. Foreign and domestic. Obviously that's not going to happen, short of a revolution or collapse.

 

Americans are really good at suppressing cognitive dissonance, they become empty vassals that shill without even knowing it. Separating "what's right" and "what works for me" is very hard to do for most people. It almost always fails to enter the debate lexicon. I can agree that "what works for me" is not always "what works for you". But when comparing the Trump administration to past administrations moral equivalency is not a fallacy that applies to dissimilar things. They are clearly doing the exact same things.

 

In my realpolitik views lifting Russian sanctions and turning a blind eye to foreigners funding the NRA would be good for the economy, would help elect more pro gun politicians, and fill my gun safe(lobbying to remove the import ban and Russian firearm imports).

 

Using illegal NSA domestic wiretaps, government spys, and the growing unchecked power of the Department of Justice (despite being executive branch) to single out specific organizations and politicians is not good for the economy or the stability of the Republic.

 

Agree or disagree?

 

If Russian business interests would be a threat to your business interests I could understand why you disagree, but it would also acknowledge how your own personal biases shape your opinions.

 

If you have moral faith in our government if Trump gets impeached, and possibly later prosecuted, do you believe other politicians will receive the same treatment? Do you believe other superpacs, non profits, lobbiests, consultants, and campaigns will receive the same ire that's about to be brought down on the NRA? When either nothing happens (my prediction) or its a single target prosecution are you willing to admit your faith in government was misguided?

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I'm not going to be the defenders of Saudi Arabia so this can be shifted to a Russia vs Saudi debate.

 

If you are asking me if all big money should be taken out of politics, yes. And again, I've already stated I'm not a huge fan of lobbying a couple of posts up from here.

 

With all of that said, I think you know the difference between Saudi Arabia and Russia. The Saudi's are the world's largest exporter of oil, AND more importantly, we have a bunch of military bases in Saudi Arabia, thus we put up with their two-faced BS, does not make it right...it makes it what it is.

 

With all of your accusations, you seem to have forgotten that Trump is POTUS......where are the Trump administration sanctions on the Saudi's? Actually, don't answer that (the answer is "there are none" anyway)...because the Saudi's have nothing to do with Russia and the NRA.

My basic point is why does Trump or the NRA deserve to get the hammer dropped on them when every previous administration has done the same thing? Why are we making examples of Presidents and nonprofits now? Why are you saying that an organization that defends gun rights needs to be the organization to make an example of?

 

I have my fantasyland political views and I have my realpolitik views. Fantasyland every politician (Trump and the NRA included), corporate "campaign consultants", and politically connected nonprofits needs to be investigated and prosecuted for facilitating pay to play. Obviously that's not going to happen.

 

Americans are really good at suppressing cognitive dissonance, they become empty vassals that shill without even knowing it.

 

In my realpolitik views lifting Russian sanctions and turning a blind eye to foreigners funding the NRA would be good for the economy, would help elect more pro gun politicians, and fill my gun safe(lobbying to remove the import ban and Russian firearm imports).

 

Using illegal NSA domestic wiretaps, government spys, and the growing unchecked power of the Department of Justice (despite being executive branch) to single out specific organizations and politicians is not good for the economy or the stability of the Republic.

 

Agree or disagree?

 

If Russian business interests would be a threat to your business interests I could understand why you disagree, but it would also acknowledge how your own personal biases shape your opinions.

 

Previous administrations have not done the same thing. Most are wise enough to NOT bring in agents of hostile foreign governments into their home to discuss dirt on an opponent while also discussing sanctions/adoptions applied to that country. Most are wise enough to not ask on National TV for said government to hack their opponent, and then later say that they fired the FBI director because they were thinking about that Russia thing (the country that hacked their opponent). Most are wise enough to not throw the FBI under the bus and claim that it is all a hoax, while half their administration is meeting with Russians and "forgetting" about it.

 

Also, I think you are conflating pay to play with "collusion", campaign finance violations, and obstruction of justice,.

 

Do I think Trump is guilty of pay to play? Yes, on many fronts. (Here is an old nugget on the Saudi's...and remember, in 2005 he tried to build a tower in Dubai as well).

"They buy apartments from me," Trump said during the Alabama rally. "They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.”

In January of this year, Trump said on Fox News he "would want to protect Saudi Arabia.
"I would want to protect Saudi Arabia," he said during the interview. "But Saudi Arabia is going to have to help us economically. They were making, before the oil went down ... they were making $1 billion a day.” http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/306990-trump-appeared-to-register-eight-companies-in-saudi-arabia

 

Do I think HRC is guilty of pay to play? Yes, yes I do.

 

 

But I've not said a word about him being impeached over pay to play, that is a different topic that infests all of our politicians from both sides of the isle.

 

 

More importantly, where in this thread did I say the NRA needed to be made an example of? I don't know what the NRA knew about Mariia or Russia and where that hole will lead (if anywhere). The NRA spent a lot of money ($30M) on Trump for this election. If we find out that a lot of money was Russian (Alexander Torshin), and they knew (or turned a blind eye), then yes...they have big problems. If we find out that there wasn't a lot of Russian money, and there were just a bunch of horny old men that for some reason thought a Russian red head HALF their age was actually interested in them...well...that is just LOLZ, and we move on.

 

My feelings on the NRA in terms of getting back to what they used to be, (and out of politics and lobbying) were made on this board prior to Mariia becoming news. I don't like the fact that a day after the story broke, we hear that congress will now allow organizations to hide donors....that looks shady heck, but those are all separate issues as of right now.

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Previous administrations have not done the same thing. Most are wise enough to NOT bring in agents of hostile foreign governments into their home to discuss dirt on an opponent while also discussing sanctions/adoptions applied to that country. Most are wise enough to not ask on National TV for said government to hack their opponent, and then later say that they fired the FBI director because they were thinking about that Russia thing (the country that hacked their opponent). Most are wise enough to not throw the FBI under the bus and claim that it is all a hoax, while half their administration is meeting with Russians and "forgetting" about it.

 

Also, I think you are conflating pay to play with "collusion", campaign finance violations, and obstruction of justice,.

 

Do I think Trump is guilty of pay to play? Yes, on many fronts. (Here is an old nugget on the Saudi's...and remember, in 2005 he tried to build a tower in Dubai as well).

"They buy apartments from me," Trump said during the Alabama rally. "They spend $40 million, $50 million. Am I supposed to dislike them? I like them very much.

In January of this year, Trump said on Fox News he "would want to protect Saudi Arabia.

 

"I would want to protect Saudi Arabia," he said during the interview. "But Saudi Arabia is going to have to help us economically. They were making, before the oil went down ... they were making $1 billion a day. http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/306990-trump-appeared-to-register-eight-companies-in-saudi-arabia

 

Do I think HRC is guilty of pay to play? Yes, yes I do.

 

 

But I've not said a word about him being impeached over pay to play, that is a different topic that infests all of our politicians from both sides of the isle.

 

 

More importantly, where in this thread did I say the NRA needed to be made an example of? I don't know what the NRA knew about Mariia or Russia and where that hole will lead (if anywhere). The NRA spent a lot of money ($30M) on Trump for this election. If we find out that a lot of money was Russian (Alexander Torshin), and they knew (or turned a blind eye), then yes...they have big problems. If we find out that there wasn't a lot of Russian money, and there were just a bunch of horny old men that for some reason thought a Russian red head HALF their age was actually interested in them...well...that is just LOLZ, and we move on.

 

My feelings on the NRA in terms of getting back to what they used to be, (and out of politics and lobbying) were made on this board prior to Mariia becoming news. I don't like the fact that a day after the story broke, we hear that congress will now allow organizations to hide donors....that looks shady heck, but those are all separate issues as of right now.

 

Again, both administrations did the same thing.

https://www.grassley.senate.gov/news/news-releases/complaint-firm-behind-dossier-former-russian-intel-officer-joined-lobbying-effort

 

Fusion GPS was originally employed by a never Trumper GOP superpac, then employed by the Clinton campaign. They also employ 2 (that we know of) Russian double agents (Natalia Veselnitskaya being the 2nd).

Fusion GPS and Rinat Akhmetshin, among others, were involved in the pro-Russia campaign in 2016, which involved lobbying congressional staffers to attempt to undermine the Justice Departments account of Magnitskys death and the crime he uncovered, repeal the Magnitsky Act itself, and delay efforts to expand it to countries beyond Russia, according to Browders complaint. Akhmetshin, a Russian immigrant, has reportedly admitted to being a soviet counterintelligence officer, and has a long history of lobbying the U.S. government for pro-Russia matters. Fusion GPS was reportedly tasked with generating negative press coverage of Browder and Hermitage.

Bear with me here, the Clinton campaign and the never Trump GOP Superpac of Paul Singer (also connected to foreign interests like every other corporate political swinger) hired Fusion GPS, a lobby and muckraking firm that they knew employed unregistered foreign Russian double agents, who at the same time were working with the Russian government to get US politicians to overturn the Magnitsky Act. Then Fusion GPS's Russian double agents talked to members of the Trump administration about overturning the Magnitsky act.

 

The DNC didn't need to hack anything because they turned to the NSA and got full access to the Trump administration's DOMESTIC (illegal wiretap) phone systems with evidence from the Steele Dossier (paid for by Fusion GPS). Among the salacious story of Trump hiring hookers to piss on a bed Obama slept in there were tidbits about the meetings Fusion GPS orchestrated between the Russian double agents and the Trump underlings. The FBI paid Christopher Steele for more dirt before firing him for lying.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/what-unmasking-did-susan-rice-do-anything-wrong-n742476

 

Of course Russia hacked the DNC, how many times was it stated over and over that Hillary compromised US security with her administrations poor IT security practices. Totally coincidencental that the millionth time Trump brought it up she got hacked.

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/josh-rogin/wp/2017/07/11/inside-the-link-between-the-russian-lawyer-who-met-donald-trump-jr-and-the-trump-dossier/

 

Then there's all these relations both administrations and even the FBI received money from the same Oligarch. But their not really revolations because media often times leaves the associations out of the story.

 

Viktor Vekselberg

Clinton

https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/emails-show-clinton-ties-to-russian-oligarch-under-investigation/article/2601514

 

Cohen (Trump's lawyer)

https://www.newyorker.com/news/our-columnists/seven-questions-answered-about-those-payments-to-michael-cohen

 

Oleg Deripaska

Mueller

http://thehill.com/opinion/white-house/387625-mueller-may-have-a-conflict-and-it-leads-directly-to-a-russian-oligarch

 

Manafort

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/09/24/manaforts-russia-connection-what-you-need-to-know-about-oleg-deripaska/

 

The conflicting dialog here is Trump and Hillary were both willing to compromise US security and undermine the DOJ to rig a scorched earth election campaign VS. the same people representing foreign interests involved with both of them (along with other major US politicians) have totally compromised US politics and everyone's looking for a little quid pro quo.

 

You may think the former, I may think the latter, but Trump and the DNC are both guilty of the same thing.

 

Anytime you see a Russian or an organization involved in the Trump case Google it to see where they've been before. Any news outlet can do the same thing, but most repress connections to push a specific dialog.

 

The reason IMO nobody will go to jail or get touched (Manafort may be sentenced but will be pardoned) is because the DNC, the GOP factions, and the deep state all did illegal things that they can't seem to separate each other from. There is no charge one person is guilty of that the opposition to that person is not. It's all just left to campaign fodder.

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And the Obama Administration still controls the DoJ and FBI, which refuse to cooperate with congress, and Rosenstein somehow runs them like a Democratic feifdom. THEY have the info, and THEY won't release it. In fact, they're covering it up, in some cases even destroying the evidence to protect the corrupt (should be) defendants, and handing out amnesty to the wrongdoers like candy at a Halloween Party. Oh wait, no, that's all FOX News fake news (PURPLE!!!). And where the heck is Sessions??? It's like trying to find Jimmy Hoffa.

 

Dude.....everyone at the top of the food chain is a Republican, appointed by Trump. Ockham's razor man...
You are not paying very close attention to the Congressional investigation, are you?
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No. That is muddying the water. No administration or candidate has ever done what Trump did, and no amount of conflation will make it so.

 

Grassley's letter was answered, and nothing came of it. Grassley attempted to single out Fusion GPS in order to discredit Steele. The problem of course is that the argument means that anyone who ever hired Fusion GPS (or Manafort, or ANY group like this) is "guilty by association".

 

Does there need to be tightening of lobbying (both foreign and domestic)? Yes. But, you are trying to equate the hiring of Fusion GPS for oppo research (AFTER it had been started by a Republican) to emailing and meeting (directly) with agents of a hostile foreign government in a quid pro quid situation. But again, this is off topic because Hillary Clinton, the DNC, or Fusion GPS have nothing to do with the NRA and Russia. We've seen Mariia's messages, and we know she was looking for an "in" and found it through the NRA. We know Natalia Veselnitskaya's "goal" is to end sanctions or Russia. What is Mariia's end goal? To get more guns in Russia? No.

 

As for the rest....conspiracy theories. The DNC turned to the NSA for info? Really? (Amazing that the DNC never leaked it!)

Trump asking Russia to "find Hillary's email", and within a day Russia started their hacking is just a coincidence? The FBI does not think so.

HRC's private email server is the same as emailing and meeting with Russians on a quid pro quid? No?

I'm not even going to go down that road.

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And the Obama Administration still controls the DoJ and FBI, which refuse to cooperate with congress, and Rosenstein somehow runs them like a Democratic feifdom. THEY have the info, and THEY won't release it. In fact, they're covering it up, in some cases even destroying the evidence to protect the corrupt (should be) defendants, and handing out amnesty to the wrongdoers like candy at a Halloween Party. Oh wait, no, that's all FOX News fake news (PURPLE!!!). And where the heck is Sessions??? It's like trying to find Jimmy Hoffa.

Dude.....everyone at the top of the food chain is a Republican, appointed by Trump. Ockham's razor man...
You are not paying very close attention to the Congressional investigation, are you?

 

I have been. Try as they might, the GOP House looks corrupt. When it is all said and done, defending Trump and trying to throw the FBI under the bus is not a good look. Interviewing about 5 people (who didn't answer questions anyway), declaring Trump innocent, closing the case, and trying to undercut Mueller was a short-sighted move. Regardless, unless money was funneled from Russia, through the NRA, to both Trump AND the GOP, it is all unrelated to the topic.

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No. That is muddying the water. No administration or candidate has ever done what Trump did, and no amount of conflation will make it so.

 

Grassley's letter was answered, and nothing came of it. Grassley attempted to single out Fusion GPS in order to discredit Steele. The problem of course is that the argument means that anyone who ever hired Fusion GPS (or Manafort, or ANY group like this) is "guilty by association".

 

Does there need to be tightening of lobbying (both foreign and domestic)? Yes. But, you are trying to equate the hiring of Fusion GPS for oppo research (AFTER it had been started by a Republican) to emailing and meeting (directly) with agents of a hostile foreign government in a quid pro quid situation. But again, this is off topic because Hillary Clinton, the DNC, or Fusion GPS have nothing to do with the NRA and Russia. We've seen Mariia's messages, and we know she was looking for an "in" and found it through the NRA. We know Natalia Veselnitskaya's "goal" is to end sanctions or Russia. What is Mariia's end goal? To get more guns in Russia? No.

 

As for the rest....conspiracy theories. The DNC turned to the NSA for info? Really? (Amazing that the DNC never leaked it!)

Trump asking Russia to "find Hillary's email", and within a day Russia started their hacking is just a coincidence? The FBI does not think so.

HRC's private email server is the same as emailing and meeting with Russians on a quid pro quid? No?

I'm not even going to go down that road.

Now revealed that Butina met with Obama's people right after the Ukraine sanctions were imposed.

 

The meetings, disclosed by several people familiar with the sessions and a report prepared by a Washington think tank that arranged them, involved Stanley Fischer, then Federal Reserve vice chairman, and Nathan Sheets, then Treasury undersecretary for international affairs

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-usa-russia-butina-exclusive/exclusive-accused-russian-agent-butina-met-with-u-s-treasury-fed-officials-idUKKBN1KC0DE

 

So Fusion GPS sending Russian double agent Natalia Veselnitskaya again to discuss lifting sanctions with Trump Jr. Manafort and Kushner at the same time they were being paid by the Clinton administration to find dirt of Russian collusion is a coincidence? She was literally fulfilling 2 Fusion GPS contracts at the same time, one for Russia and one for the US. What kind of mental gymnastics do you have to pull to believe that it was just casual association?

 

Discredit Steele? Have you skimmed through the Dossier when it leaked? He was also fired from the FBI for repeatedly lying. He's thoroughly discredited, and I doubt was considered credible to start with. But somehow it was used to get a FISA warrant.

 

NSA conspiracy? Who do you think the FBI uses when they get a FISA warrant? Are you old enough to think that a phone tap is an FBI agent sitting on a phoneline with a headset?

 

Notice how the entire investigation has totally pivoted off Russian collusion (other then briefly being brought up after the Putin meeting and the NRA thing)? They are pivoting to pay to play (which I've beaten to death the fact that both candidates, as well as prior candidates are guilty of). There's usually money laundering associated with pay to play, but when everyone is doing it it's ignored.

 

One more for you, look up the connection of Elliot Broidy and Steven Rattner. They were both indicted, along with Charles Schumer's top aid Hank Morris by the SEC colluding together in the same New York pension pay to play. Rattner to this day manages Michael Bloomberg's portfolio and was Obama's former car czar that championed the auto industry bailout.

 

Elliot Brody is now being investigated in pay to play with the Trump administration for trying to get access as a proxy for the United Arab Emirates. His co-conspirator? Convicted pedophile and Bill Clinton besty George Nader (picture below looking at each other) and Blackwater founder Eric Prince (not pictured).

2018-03-13_09h30_53.png

 

This came to light after being hacked allegedly by US company Global Risk Advisors (run by Kevin Chalker, an ex government foreign intelligence officer) on behalf of Qatar (lawsuit is pending). https://www.yahoo.com/news/former-cia-british-operatives-hacked-201727305.html FYI all the old arms traffickers are now dealing in hacking tools. Mainly because it's hard to get your hands on sanitized Russian arms with the sanctions and "gun walking" was a big disaster.

 

It really has to be frustrating being Robert Mueller trying to find the one person who did something illegal with Trump that didn't do the exact same illegal things with the Clintons. You forget about it because no further investigation is done.

 

Again showing the little degrees of separation and bringing this all back to the NRA:

 

George Nader (pictured with Bill Clinton) worked with Eric Prince (Betsy DeVos's brother and Cheny's favorite private security org Blackwater founder), Jared Kushner, and Elliot Broidy. They met with UAE reps allegedly to set up back channels to Russia. Around this same time Oliver North, John Maguire (former Reagan, Bush, Clinton, and W Bush CIA operative), and Eric Prince were trying to get hired by Trump to be his private CIA/NSA.

 

https://theintercept.com/2017/12/04/trump-white-house-weighing-plans-for-private-spies-to-counter-deep-state-enemies/

 

I could play this game forever, they're either all guilty or we just ignore it and let government do what government does as long as its good for business, the economy, and mah guns. I just want my Ollie North autographed genuine Russian made AK74 out of the deal. Why would you wanna shill against that from happening?

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You can attempt to play games....that is up to you. but this will still land on Trump's neck.

I meant to call this comment from your previous post..."Then Fusion GPS's Russian double agents"....you came back to something similar in your last post "So Fusion GPS sending Russian double agent". I guess you are attempting to imply that Fusion GPS is really the mastermind behind all of this and it is a set-up by Fusion GPS? If anything, it is a trap by Russia, and the Trump campaign fell right into it.

 

 

 

I see you post a picture and emphasize that Nadler "knows" Clinton..again..thus "everyone is guilty so call it all off". Nope.

 

You can attempt to muddy the water all you want. The investigation will go where it goes, but it will run through Trump first. If the NRA got in bed with Russians, there is nothing that will change that. If you want to get rid of all lobbying and find out who else has been doing dirt, great, sunlight works for me. I think big money (both foreign and domestic) needs to come out of politics. That goes for both sides.

 

Bottom line. It is too late for the argument of "just leave it alone".

 

BTW - I was aware that Mariia met with some officials while Obama was in office. I'm all for digging into EVERY SINGLE PERSON she met with. The questions are...how and why did a grad student get access to such people? Why was she at the National Prayer Breakfast? Why was she trying to invite Putin? How did a grad student get a meeting with Trump Jr? She also asked Trump himself a question at an event. About gun rights? No....about sanctions.

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You can attempt to play games....that is up to you. but this will still land on Trump's neck.

I meant to call this comment from your previous post..."Then Fusion GPS's Russian double agents"....you came back to something similar in your last post "So Fusion GPS sending Russian double agent". I guess you are attempting to imply that Fusion GPS is really the mastermind behind all of this and it is a set-up by Fusion GPS? If anything, it is a trap by Russia, and the Trump campaign fell right into it.

 

 

 

I see you post a picture and emphasize that Nadler "knows" Clinton..again..thus "everyone is guilty so call it all off". Nope.

 

You can attempt to muddy the water all you want. The investigation will go where it goes, but it will run through Trump first. If the NRA got in bed with Russians, there is nothing that will change that. If you want to get rid of all lobbying and find out who else has been doing dirt, great, sunlight works for me. I think big money (both foreign and domestic) needs to come out of politics. That goes for both sides.

 

Bottom line. It is too late for the argument of "just leave it alone".

 

BTW - I was aware that Mariia met with some officials while Obama was in office. I'm all for digging into EVERY SINGLE PERSON she met with. The questions are...how and why did a grad student get access to such people? Why was she at the National Prayer Breakfast? Why was she trying to invite Putin? How did a grad student get a meeting with Trump Jr? She also asked Trump himself a question at an event. About gun rights? No....about sanctions.

So are our 3 letter agencies totally incompetent? Or do they let this stuff slide because they want to get Trump?

 

I said from the very beginning she went to talk about sanctions, you said she went to take down the American government.

 

She got even higher up the food chain with Obama's people, she was talking to the vice Chairman of the fed, who actually enforces sanctions. More importantly they clarfiy the exact goods sanctioned, adding or subtracting individual items via clarification. Do you admit, based on this knowledge, it's possible the Obama executive branch was tainted by the Russians?

 

This same clarification power by the executive branch has since completely been stripped from Trump in regards to the Russian sanctions. Other then signing or vetoing what Congress gives him Trump cannot do anything about the Russian sanctions.

 

As I keep pointing out, all the Russians really want from the US is to have the sanctions lifted. Based on the sheer volume of Russians that have approached Trumps people how could you not conclude the Dem's in Obama's senate and the current Republican house and senate members are not meeting with or receiving money from the Russians? Do you think everyone in the Trump administration is incompetent despite having years experience in these exact shady dealings with multiple Dem and Repup administrations? Or do you think it's only recently a target has been put on them?

 

Do you think 2018's house and senate campaigns on both sides will be free of Russian "collusion"? Again, knowing that they have complete control over sanctions, not the President (other then veto power)?

 

Are our 3 letter agencies totally incompetent were they can't stop this meddling or do they let it happen so they can use it to remove political opponents?

 

On Fusion GPS true or false

-Fusion GPS took over the contract from Paul Singer after Trump secured his nomination to dig up dirt on Trump?

 

-Natalia Veselnitskaya was on the payroll of both Fusion GPS and the Russian government

 

-The Russian government was paying Fusion GPS to campaign to lift sanctions

 

-Natalia Veselnitskaya was not a registered foreign agent, therefore could not discuss lifting sanctions with ANY American politician

 

-Fusion GPS's contract was to dig up dirt on Trump's people meeting with unregistered Russian foreign agents (collusion)

 

-both Fusion GPS, initially through the DNC, then out of Glenn Simpson's own pocket, the FBI paid money to Christopher Steele. The FBI then fired Christopher Steele for lying, proving him to be not always credible

 

-a FISA warrant was issued by the FBI for the NSA to gather intelligence on domestic citizens based on a source the FBI addmited was not credible

 

Do you have any citations to refute these claims of being false (since I've cited them as true across multiple left leaning publications you probably don't consider fake news)? Or do you wish to continue to dispute me by saying "it's all a coincidence and totally unrelated" and the FBI, the DNC, and Fusion GPS did nothing illegal and did not work together to go after Trump.

 

To reveal bias, when faced with the facts do you not feel cognitive dissonance because you respect, support, and don't question the work of 3 letter agencies and big government? Are you "with her" in the Clinton camp? Since Illinois is not a swing state did you vote for Trump or Clinton so you could virtue signal one way or the other? Or did you vote the presidential candidate opposite the ticket you grabbed in the primaries to show a small statistical dissatisfaction with your preferred party?

 

If Trump gets impeachment charges it will be for his women, not Russia. It's the only thing Mueller has that won't bring down the entire DC establishment with it. He'll at worst get the Bill Clinton treatment, but Rudy's babysitting him so he doesn't purjure himself. Pardons by Trump and immunity by Mueller will be handed out to the low level goons. Best of all, another 6 years of this entertainment is almost guaranteed!

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From a strictly logical, pragmatic angle, let's face it: our REAL enemy/threat is China. They steal our tech, are probably (I don't have figures, but I'm pretty sure it's right) by far the world's largest manufacturer and exporter of manufactured goods, they are militarizing and flexing their muscles, trying to claim and militarize the South China Sea and thus control the world's busiest trade route. They have probed and goaded us militarily. They have a colossal popuation. The own more than $1 Trillion of our debt. We depend on them for raw materials and other essentials for our military and equipment.

 

Russia now has half our population, an economy the size of Texas', and is really only a "threat" from a nuclear standpoint. Not to minimize that -- EVER -- but China pretty soon will equal their military threat.

 

We have allied with the Russian Empire against Germany in WWI, and with the Soviet Union in WWII. We have had allies such as the Shah of Iran, Manuel Noriega, and even (now) Saudi Arabia when it suited our security needs. It is in BOTH our interests to cooperate with Russia as a counter to China. And when I say that, I mean with NATO, as well. It will take the US and all of Europe, along with Japan and South Korea, to counter the Chinese threat and keep them "honest." Nothing political at all there; simply pragmatic.

 

Uhhh... allying with Russia to counter China? You do realize that those two countries have a VERY close relationship, right? He's not going to play those two countries against each other, he's the one getting played.

 

Trump is getting played, because he doesn't understand global politics beyond what a freshman at a state university would. In fact, I'd argue that you could take a random first year student, and they'd do a better job.

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From a strictly logical, pragmatic angle, let's face it: our REAL enemy/threat is China. They steal our tech, are probably (I don't have figures, but I'm pretty sure it's right) by far the world's largest manufacturer and exporter of manufactured goods, they are militarizing and flexing their muscles, trying to claim and militarize the South China Sea and thus control the world's busiest trade route. They have probed and goaded us militarily. They have a colossal popuation. The own more than $1 Trillion of our debt. We depend on them for raw materials and other essentials for our military and equipment.

Russia now has half our population, an economy the size of Texas', and is really only a "threat" from a nuclear standpoint. Not to minimize that -- EVER -- but China pretty soon will equal their military threat.

We have allied with the Russian Empire against Germany in WWI, and with the Soviet Union in WWII. We have had allies such as the Shah of Iran, Manuel Noriega, and even (now) Saudi Arabia when it suited our security needs. It is in BOTH our interests to cooperate with Russia as a counter to China. And when I say that, I mean with NATO, as well. It will take the US and all of Europe, along with Japan and South Korea, to counter the Chinese threat and keep them "honest." Nothing political at all there; simply pragmatic.

 

Uhhh... allying with Russia to counter China? You do realize that those two countries have a VERY close relationship, right? He's not going to play those two countries against each other, he's the one getting played.

 

Trump is getting played, because he doesn't understand global politics beyond what a freshman at a state university would. In fact, I'd argue that you could take a random first year student, and they'd do a better job.

Russia's interests no longer align with China's. If the U.S. is neutered, China would be the world's irrefutable, sole economic and military superpower. It suits them for the moment, but the more our economic and military declines vis-a-vis China, the more threat the Chinese present to the Russians. The Russians aren't stupid enough not to see this.

 

Our inviting all the former Warsaw Pact nations into NATO was stupid. It made Russia feel threatened and cornered, and they need to be friendly to China in order to keep themselves from being completely surrounded. In other words, it played right into China's hands. At the same time, these countries contribute practically nothing to NATO, and have increased our obligation to defend pretty much all of Europe at this point. The only real threat Russia retains is nuclear. Oh, and "hacking" our "democracy." (Barf.)

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From a strictly logical, pragmatic angle, let's face it: our REAL enemy/threat is China. They steal our tech, are probably (I don't have figures, but I'm pretty sure it's right) by far the world's largest manufacturer and exporter of manufactured goods, they are militarizing and flexing their muscles, trying to claim and militarize the South China Sea and thus control the world's busiest trade route. They have probed and goaded us militarily. They have a colossal popuation. The own more than $1 Trillion of our debt. We depend on them for raw materials and other essentials for our military and equipment.

Russia now has half our population, an economy the size of Texas', and is really only a "threat" from a nuclear standpoint. Not to minimize that -- EVER -- but China pretty soon will equal their military threat.

We have allied with the Russian Empire against Germany in WWI, and with the Soviet Union in WWII. We have had allies such as the Shah of Iran, Manuel Noriega, and even (now) Saudi Arabia when it suited our security needs. It is in BOTH our interests to cooperate with Russia as a counter to China. And when I say that, I mean with NATO, as well. It will take the US and all of Europe, along with Japan and South Korea, to counter the Chinese threat and keep them "honest." Nothing political at all there; simply pragmatic.

Uhhh... allying with Russia to counter China? You do realize that those two countries have a VERY close relationship, right? He's not going to play those two countries against each other, he's the one getting played.

 

Trump is getting played, because he doesn't understand global politics beyond what a freshman at a state university would. In fact, I'd argue that you could take a random first year student, and they'd do a better job.

Russia's interests no longer align with China's. If the U.S. is neutered, China would be the world's irrefutable, sole economic and military superpower. It suits them for the moment, but the more our economic and military declines vis-a-vis China, the more threat the Chinese present to the Russians. The Russians aren't stupid enough not to see this.

 

Our inviting all the former Warsaw Pact nations into NATO was stupid. It made Russia feel threatened and cornered, and they need to be friendly to China in order to keep themselves from being completely surrounded. In other words, it played right into China's hands. At the same time, these countries contribute practically nothing to NATO, and have increased our obligation to defend pretty much all of Europe at this point. The only real threat Russia retains is nuclear. Oh, and "hacking" our "democracy." (Barf.)

 

 

China and Russia are two authoritarian states, whose leaders are close personal friends. Jinping attended Putin's birthday party, and the two countries have had close relations since nearly the end of WW2 and without much issue other than in 1969. Two years ago, China offered Russia an alliance against NATO. Trump has repeatedly sided against NATO and with Russia. That's a moronic move.

 

Former satellite soviet states are not the property of Russia. Crimea and South Ossetia / Georgia are not the property of Russia. They are independent states, and they do not deserved to be annexed or invaded, as has occurred under W Bush's, Obama's and Trump's watch. If you stand for democracy, you need to take a firm stand against these invasions, because that's what they are. They should be called as such, and the inclusion of countries in the NATO alliance will help more of the former Soviet states from being annexed or invaded.

 

China and Russia's interests often align, and it's painfully naive to think for a moment that Trump is somehow going to "make a deal" that will drive a wedge between the two.

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So are our 3 letter agencies totally incompetent? Or do they let this stuff slide because they want to get Trump?

 

I said from the very beginning she went to talk about sanctions, you said she went to take down the American government.

 

She got even higher up the food chain with Obama's people, she was talking to the vice Chairman of the fed, who actually enforces sanctions. More importantly they clarfiy the exact goods sanctioned, adding or subtracting individual items via clarification. Do you admit, based on this knowledge, it's possible the Obama executive branch was tainted by the Russians?

 

This same clarification power by the executive branch has since completely been stripped from Trump in regards to the Russian sanctions. Other then signing or vetoing what Congress gives him Trump cannot do anything about the Russian sanctions.

 

As I keep pointing out, all the Russians really want from the US is to have the sanctions lifted. Based on the sheer volume of Russians that have approached Trumps people how could you not conclude the Dem's in Obama's senate and the current Republican house and senate members are not meeting with or receiving money from the Russians? Do you think everyone in the Trump administration is incompetent despite having years experience in these exact shady dealings with multiple Dem and Repup administrations? Or do you think it's only recently a target has been put on them?

 

Do you think 2018's house and senate campaigns on both sides will be free of Russian "collusion"? Again, knowing that they have complete control over sanctions, not the President (other then veto power)?

 

Are our 3 letter agencies totally incompetent were they can't stop this meddling or do they let it happen so they can use it to remove political opponents?

 

On Fusion GPS true or false

-Fusion GPS took over the contract from Paul Singer after Trump secured his nomination to dig up dirt on Trump?

 

-Natalia Veselnitskaya was on the payroll of both Fusion GPS and the Russian government

 

-The Russian government was paying Fusion GPS to campaign to lift sanctions

 

-Natalia Veselnitskaya was not a registered foreign agent, therefore could not discuss lifting sanctions with ANY American politician

 

-Fusion GPS's contract was to dig up dirt on Trump's people meeting with unregistered Russian foreign agents (collusion)

 

-both Fusion GPS, initially through the DNC, then out of Glenn Simpson's own pocket, the FBI paid money to Christopher Steele. The FBI then fired Christopher Steele for lying, proving him to be not always credible

 

-a FISA warrant was issued by the FBI for the NSA to gather intelligence on domestic citizens based on a source the FBI addmited was not credible

 

Do you have any citations to refute these claims of being false (since I've cited them as true across multiple left leaning publications you probably don't consider fake news)? Or do you wish to continue to dispute me by saying "it's all a coincidence and totally unrelated" and the FBI, the DNC, and Fusion GPS did nothing illegal and did not work together to go after Trump.

 

To reveal bias, when faced with the facts do you not feel cognitive dissonance because you respect, support, and don't question the work of 3 letter agencies and big government? Are you "with her" in the Clinton camp? Since Illinois is not a swing state did you vote for Trump or Clinton so you could virtue signal one way or the other? Or did you vote the presidential candidate opposite the ticket you grabbed in the primaries to show a small statistical dissatisfaction with your preferred party?

 

If Trump gets impeachment charges it will be for his women, not Russia. It's the only thing Mueller has that won't bring down the entire DC establishment with it. He'll at worst get the Bill Clinton treatment, but Rudy's babysitting him so he doesn't purjure himself. Pardons by Trump and immunity by Mueller will be handed out to the low level goons. Best of all, another 6 years of this entertainment is almost guaranteed!

 

 

Enough of the false dichotomy fallacies.

 

*FARA laws are often weak and toothless. They are rarely pursued, and usually result in just a hand slap. That does not make our 3 letter agencies incompetent . But we've never had a campaign as stupid and blatant as the Trump campaign. When is the last time we had a NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER have to register as a foreign agent after he was fired for (so called) lying about his contact with Russia? When was the last time bi-partisan senate grilled the SOS on what the heck our President and Putin discussed for over 2 hours because no one else was allowed in the meeting and it wasn't recorded? A bi-partisan bill is being crafted RIGHT NOW to find out what was discussed, that is unheard of. Trump/Russia made themselves the exception to the rarely followed rules by their own actions.

 

*I didn't say "SHE" went to take down America. I said the Russian wants to crumble America. I also specifically stated it is not an "a or b" situation. Replace "she" with "Russians" and another fallacy is revealed. I said from the very beginning she went to talk about sanctions, you said Russians want to crumble American. When read like that, it becomes a) What's your point here..that we have different opinions? and B) Are you sure you want to limit the scope of Russian aggression to STRICTLY sanctions? You've said this a few times now. Based on Russian actions, they have taken a curious path to get sanctions lifted. Instead of addressing why the sanctions were applied, they just invade other countries, meddle in elections, sow discord, support other murderous dictators, poison people, show video of a nuclear weapon hitting Florida, ect. Russia...you're doing it wrong.

 

*I would assume plenty of countries infiltrated the Obama administration, the Bush administration, the Clinton, Reagan, and so on. Is this another attempt to muddy the water? We've read the indictment, it was specifically noted to go after Republicans, not Democrats. Obama was POTUS for 8 years and was never under investigation for "collusion" with Russia. Why even mention it? Just a non-sequitur response.

 

*Trump sat on veto proof sanctions already signed. Some he signed kicking and screaming. Remember, Flynn told Russia to not worry about them. And Trump himself had hinted at reduced sanctions on the trail.

 

 

As for Fusion GPS. First and foremost. It is a red herring. What does Fusion GPS have to do with topic? But I digress.

 

*I am honestly not sure if you are being misleading on purpose, but you keep implying Natalia is some type of agent FOR Fusion GPS. Why? That is WRONG. She was the lawyer for a Russian that was charged by the SDNY for money laundering. Since she can't practice law in the US, another firm was hired to defend said person. That firm hired Fusion GPS to do research. They do have a connection, but it is no where near as nefarious as you (or Grassley) are trying to imply, at least not from the Fusion GPS side. It is why nothing has come of Grassley's scheduled hearing. Fusion GPS does oppo research (mud-raking, and I do not disagree with that term), that is what they are paid to do. If you want to say Putin is pulling all of the strings, it simply means that the Trump campaign willingly walked into a trap laid by Putin.

 

*I don't understand your point about saying that since she isn't a registered as a foreign agent, she can't discuss lifting sanctions with American politicians. Do you mean she can't "LEGALLY" lobby against sanctions? Or are you saying that she didn't discuss them because she is not allowed? I'm pretty sure neither Natalia nor the rest of Russia are not concerned in the slightest about registering as foreign agents prior to them engaging in ways to influence our politicians.

 

At this point, you are now trying to debate the FBI and FISA requests. I'm not going to continue to follow you down this rabbit hole of deflection and whataboutism. The topic is (or was) "The NRA and Russia"

 

But I will add this. One of your earlier posts stated that Russia had 2 goals. "Russia has 2 goals, to get sanctions lifted and to delegitimize our elections to make Putin look like a democratically elected official (to argue for sanctions to be lifted)" Your second point is closer to my first point. To delegitimize our election (and install a pro-Russia administration) is a good way to hurt America, push away our allies, and increase Russia's power. You say their goal stops at sanctions, I say it goes well beyond that.

 

Honestly, the other poster is correct. There isn't much left to discuss. Mariia is in jail, and the NRA has refused to comment. Sooo...we wait.

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