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Retailers requiring FOID from FCCL holders


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#1 Hap

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 02:33 PM

As most IC members know, IL law now allows FCCL holders to use their FCCL cards for all purposes which formerly required FOID cards. FCCL holders are still required to have valid FOIDs but can use the FCCL for purchases of firearms and ammunition, etc. While nothing in the law requires a retailer to accept the FCCL for purchases, retailers who do not do so are unnecessarily inconveniencing their customers.

 

The current laws may be found at

 

http://www.ilga.gov/...57&ChapterID=39

http://www.ilga.gov/...SeqEnd=71400000

 

(links provided by kwc).

 

Several threads have mentioned that not all retailers are up to speed with these changes, and there are now several threads discussing this topic, e.g.

 

http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=58700

http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=59043

 

This thread is an effort at consolidating some of this information into one place and keeping it updated for the convenience of IC readers. If you have a new report please send me a PM or post to this thread. If you find that a retailer has finally gotten clued in please do likewise. I'll keep the list in this post updated. I hope this thread can die a lonely death soon, but until then, if it helps avoid a wasted trip, great.

 

With that as background, here's what I've seen posted so far. Please PM or post corrections.

 

Gander Mountain (location not specified)

Reported on 10/19/2015 by Retiredguns, post #5 of http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=58700

 

Maxon Shooter's Supply, Des Plaines - requires FOID for range use

Reported on 10/19/2015 by soylentgreen, post #7 of http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=58700

 

Pekin Gun & Sporting Goods, Pekin

Store staffer states (phone call 10/21/2015) that they will continue to require FOIDs until told otherwise by ISP and ATF.

Reported on 10/21/2015 by Joebillybob, this thread

 

Wal-Mart (location not specified)

Reported on 10/19/2015 by Retiredguns, post #5 of http://illinoiscarry...showtopic=58700


Edited by Hap, 22 November 2015 - 01:45 PM.

Ad utrumque paratus


#2 Bubbacs

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 03:18 PM

Thanks for wrangling up the mixed threads.
Space consideration and all that.

You might want to also show that with the new rules in place of either/or the FOID/CCL cards, it's still the business owners right to ask for which one they want for ID!

#3 snubjob

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 03:42 PM

And it's also a firearm owner's right to decide which retailer to spend his or her money with. Those that don't understand, or refuse to acknowledge the new law, evidently don't need my money.

#4 Bubbacs

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 03:47 PM

Yes, you may shop anywhere you wish to spend your hard earned US American dollars.
And the business owner has the right to follow the laws.
It states "Either" card may be used, it doesn't state that one is exclusive of the other!
So while the shop owners are choosing one over the other, our, the firearm community attempting to force them to lean one way instead of the other is very much like the anti's stateing their position and us stateing ours!
If it doesn't "conform" to your exact ideals, it's incorrect.
I amazed at those who after how many years the FOID has been around, now refusing to do business with someone actually abiding by the rules as they are written........

#5 snubjob

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 03:56 PM

We have choices. The retailer makes his, and I make mine. Simple as that. I'm not trying to force anybody to do anything.


Edited by snubjob, 21 November 2015 - 03:57 PM.


#6 snubjob

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 04:12 PM

And thanks Hap! This will help with my decisions!



#7 Joebillybob

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 04:33 PM

Pekin Gun, 281 derby, pekin, il



#8 Patriots & Tyrants

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 05:14 PM

Police officers barley understand the law, you expect in many cases, store clerks to know it? This will take years if not a decade until we stop hearing about it totally. Someone is always behind the times. Don't expect printing the statute to help you either, do what I do and carry both for the time being.



#9 yyyz

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 05:32 PM

I carry both. I use the FOID card when asked for an ID. It is really no one's business but mine that I have a concealed carry license.

Gfw

 

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#10 barryware

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 06:54 PM

I carry both. I use the FOID card when asked for an ID. It is really no one's business but mine that I have a concealed carry license.

^^ This...


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#11 3ddiver

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 09:58 PM

I carry both. I use the FOID card when asked for an ID. It is really no one's business but mine that I have a concealed carry license.

^^ This...
Yep as long as we are required to have the FOID I see no reason not to show it instead of the CCL.

#12 DomG

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Posted 21 November 2015 - 10:06 PM

I carry both. I use the FOID card when asked for an ID. It is really no one's business but mine that I have a concealed carry license.

^^ This...
Yep as long as we are required to have the FOID I see no reason not to show it instead of the CCL.

The REASON is that some people don't want to have both their FOID and CCL in their wallet in case they lose their wallet or if it is stolen. If the wallet is lost and you have your FOID at home, you can still possess a weapon and ammo, FOID carry and buy more of each while you wait for a replacement CCL. If both are in your wallet, you can't even have a single bullet in your possesiion until you get a FOID replacement.
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#13 Quiet Observer

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 11:30 AM

The REASON is that some people don't want to have both their FOID and CCL in their wallet in case they lose their wallet or if it is stolen. If the wallet is lost and you have your FOID at home, you can still possess a weapon and ammo, FOID carry and buy more of each while you wait for a replacement CCL. If both are in your wallet, you can't even have a single bullet in your possesiion until you get a FOID replacement.           

 

Maybe someone has had to get a replacement FOID to provide their experience, but I doubt that anyone who has ordered a replacement FOID has had to turn over their guns and ammo to someone else until the new card arrives.  The police are not going to seek a search warrant for the home of someone applying for a replacement FOID.  There are records to show one has been issued a FOID and a replacement has been ordered.  If one uses a firearm to defend a home, those records are easily accessed by the police.  Even if that defense is 100% justified, the defender will be subjected to extensive, and probably repeated, interrogation whether or not they can present a FOID.



#14 DomG

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 09:16 PM

The REASON is that some people don't want to have both their FOID and CCL in their wallet in case they lose their wallet or if it is stolen. If the wallet is lost and you have your FOID at home, you can still possess a weapon and ammo, FOID carry and buy more of each while you wait for a replacement CCL. If both are in your wallet, you can't even have a single bullet in your possesiion until you get a FOID replacement.

 
Maybe someone has had to get a replacement FOID to provide their experience, but I doubt that anyone who has ordered a replacement FOID has had to turn over their guns and ammo to someone else until the new card arrives.  The police are not going to seek a search warrant for the home of someone applying for a replacement FOID.  There are records to show one has been issued a FOID and a replacement has been ordered.  If one uses a firearm to defend a home, those records are easily accessed by the police.  Even if that defense is 100% justified, the defender will be subjected to extensive, and probably repeated, interrogation whether or not they can present a FOID.

I was talking about possessing a weapon outside of your home with your FOID card. Also to buy more ammo. If you lose both your FOID and CCL, everything must stay home and you can't buy any additional guns or ammo.
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#15 UnderCover

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 09:34 PM

I carry both. I use the FOID card when asked for an ID. It is really no one's business but mine that I have a concealed carry license.Ditto

Ditto!


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#16 Gamma

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Posted 22 November 2015 - 10:55 PM

 

 

The REASON is that some people don't want to have both their FOID and CCL in their wallet in case they lose their wallet or if it is stolen. If the wallet is lost and you have your FOID at home, you can still possess a weapon and ammo, FOID carry and buy more of each while you wait for a replacement CCL. If both are in your wallet, you can't even have a single bullet in your possesiion until you get a FOID replacement.

 
Maybe someone has had to get a replacement FOID to provide their experience, but I doubt that anyone who has ordered a replacement FOID has had to turn over their guns and ammo to someone else until the new card arrives.  The police are not going to seek a search warrant for the home of someone applying for a replacement FOID.  There are records to show one has been issued a FOID and a replacement has been ordered.  If one uses a firearm to defend a home, those records are easily accessed by the police.  Even if that defense is 100% justified, the defender will be subjected to extensive, and probably repeated, interrogation whether or not they can present a FOID.

I was talking about possessing a weapon outside of your home with your FOID card. Also to buy more ammo. If you lose both your FOID and CCL, everything must stay home and you can't buy any additional guns or ammo.

 

Not to mention the additional time for replacement.

 

From anecdotal reports, replacement FOIDs are taking over 30 days. And ISP appears to not be willing to send you a replacment CCL until you have the replacement FOID despite the change in the law. Replacement CCLs by contrast seem to be taking less than a week. So if you lose your wallet, do you want to be without carry for less than a week, or for 5~6 weeks?


Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#17 Joebillybob

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Posted 23 November 2015 - 04:38 AM


 

From anecdotal reports, replacement FOIDs are taking over 30 days. And ISP appears to not be willing to send you a replacment CCL until you have the replacement FOID despite the change in the law. Replacement CCLs by contrast seem to be taking less than a week. So if you lose your wallet, do you want to be without carry for less than a week, or for 5~6 weeks?

 

from the perspective of someone who misplaced my CCL, the replacement time for my CCL was almost 2 months... almost as long as the reports of time elapsed for address changes.  

 

Whatever you do, DONT MISPLACE YOUR CCL... THE ILLINOIS HOPLOPHOBES LOVE TO DENY YOUR RIGHTS!!!



#18 omg_its_john_cena

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 10:35 AM

I know this is an old thread, but I've been experimenting with presenting my CCW instead of my FOID card largely due to reasons already mentioned in that I don't like having all my eggs in one basket that I could (god forbid) potentially misplace or lose. Additionally, I just like carrying around less stuff.

 

Locally I typically only buy ammo from Wal-Mart, and I've yet to be to a Wal-Mart that took my CCW and instead insisted on seeing my FOID card. I'm curious if anyone has had the opposite experience. I don't think they're trained at all, when I tried to argue with one of them about it they just told me, "Look the cash register is asking for your FOID card."

 

Welp.



#19 JakubWrobel

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:00 AM

The REASON is that some people don't want to have both their FOID and CCL in their wallet in case they lose their wallet or if it is stolen. If the wallet is lost and you have your FOID at home, you can still possess a weapon and ammo, FOID carry and buy more of each while you wait for a replacement CCL. If both are in your wallet, you can't even have a single bullet in your possesiion until you get a FOID replacement.

 

 

For me, I carry both my FOID and CCL in a separate card holder that goes in my front pocket of my jeans. The reason I carry both is because I prefer to show my FOID instead of my CCL. A reason why I carry them separately is that I rarely have my wallet on me when at home or work (most of my time is spent at either location). When I do have my wallet with me, it usually stays in my attache/suitcase (while at work) and not in my pocket, so if I have to step away from my desk, I won't have my wallet with me (and if I had FOID/CCL in wallet, I'd be screwed).

 

For me, my system works great. The moment I clip on my holster, FOID/CCL with State ID goes in the jeans and does not come out until holster is unclipped from the belt. Only once have I forgot to take FOID/CCL while using this method.

 

Bottom line, there is no right or wrong way to go about this. The law states either FOID or CCL can be used, so one should carry one or both, whatever is ones preference. But when a business asks for FOID and all one has is a CCL, it's difficult to lay blame on one party or the other. I would like to see businesses have a "preference," where they prefer a FOID card to be shown, but in the absence of a FOID, a CCL will work just as well (or vice versa). That would remove a lot of angst and confusion, but that's not the Illinois way.


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#20 Glock23

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:26 AM

But when a business asks for FOID and all one has is a CCL, it's difficult to lay blame on one party or the other.

 

I disagree.

 

The only reason businesses ask for a FOID card in the first place is because the FOID Act placed that requirement on them.

 

The FOID Act was updated almost a year ago (July 2015) to allow a CCL to be used to purchase ammo/firearms.  There's no reason for a store to continue to enforce a policy that only exists because of a state law, and the policy they're enforcing is based on an outdated version of the law.


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#21 JakubWrobel

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 11:55 AM

I disagree.

 

The only reason businesses ask for a FOID card in the first place is because the FOID Act placed that requirement on them.

 

The FOID Act was updated almost a year ago (July 2015) to allow a CCL to be used to purchase ammo/firearms.  There's no reason for a store to continue to enforce a policy that only exists because of a state law, and the policy they're enforcing is based on an outdated version of the law.

 

 

The amended act only states that if you possess a valid CCL and have only your CCL when purchasing ammo/firearms, you are exempt from showing your FOID. There is nothing in the act that states a business has to honor a CCL over a FOID if you do possess a CCL. I'm not saying that outright refusal of a sale just because you present a CCL over a FOID is right, but I don't buy the argument that there are no reasons for businesses to continue to accept FOID cards over CCL's either. There are always reasons.


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#22 Glock23

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 12:29 PM

 

The amended act only states that if you possess a valid CCL and have only your CCL when purchasing ammo/firearms, you are exempt from showing your FOID.

 

No.  You are allowed to show either.  It has nothing to do with whether you have both cards on you or not.

 

 

Sec. 3. (a) Except as provided in Section 3a, no person may knowingly transfer, or cause to be transferred, any firearm, firearm ammunition, stun gun, or taser to any person within this State unless the transferee with whom he deals displays either: (1) a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card which has previously been issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act; or (2) a currently valid license to carry a concealed firearm which has previously been issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act.

 

The point, though, is that the only reason they ask for a FOID in the first place was because the state law said a valid FOID was required for transfers.  The law now says that a valid FOID or CCL is required, yet many stores still require the FOID.

 

 

Before the Candy Act became law:

 

Kid: Mom, can I have some candy?

Mom: Sure, son, here ya go!

 

After the Candy Act became law:

 

Kid: Mom, can I have some candy?

Mom: Your dad says you have to show me that you did your homework before I can give you candy.

Kid: *shows homework*

Mom: Great, here ya go!

 

After the Candy Act was amended:

 

Kid: Mom, can I have some candy?

Mom: Your dad says you have to show me that you did your homework before I can give you candy.

Kid: No, he changed that rule last year... I can either show completed homework or do a household chore, and I just washed the dishes.  See?

Mom: Sorry, I'm sticking with your father's old policy.  I'm gonna need to see some completed homework.

Kid: But I don't have any homework this weekend...

Mom: Sorry... no homework, no candy.

 

 

Same basic concept... Mom's wrong.


Edited by Glock23, 09 June 2016 - 12:40 PM.

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#23 JakubWrobel

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 02:55 PM

 

 

The amended act only states that if you possess a valid CCL and have only your CCL when purchasing ammo/firearms, you are exempt from showing your FOID.

 

No.  You are allowed to show either.  It has nothing to do with whether you have both cards on you or not.

 

 

Sec. 3. (a) Except as provided in Section 3a, no person may knowingly transfer, or cause to be transferred, any firearm, firearm ammunition, stun gun, or taser to any person within this State unless the transferee with whom he deals displays either: (1) a currently valid Firearm Owner's Identification Card which has previously been issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the provisions of this Act; or (2) a currently valid license to carry a concealed firearm which has previously been issued in his or her name by the Department of State Police under the Firearm Concealed Carry Act.

 

The point, though, is that the only reason they ask for a FOID in the first place was because the state law said a valid FOID was required for transfers.  The law now says that a valid FOID or CCL is required, yet many stores still require the FOID.

 

 

Before the Candy Act became law:

 

Kid: Mom, can I have some candy?

Mom: Sure, son, here ya go!

 

After the Candy Act became law:

 

Kid: Mom, can I have some candy?

Mom: Your dad says you have to show me that you did your homework before I can give you candy.

Kid: *shows homework*

Mom: Great, here ya go!

 

After the Candy Act was amended:

 

Kid: Mom, can I have some candy?

Mom: Your dad says you have to show me that you did your homework before I can give you candy.

Kid: No, he changed that rule last year... I can either show completed homework or do a household chore, and I just washed the dishes.  See?

Mom: Sorry, I'm sticking with your father's old policy.  I'm gonna need to see some completed homework.

Kid: But I don't have any homework this weekend...

Mom: Sorry... no homework, no candy.

 

 

Same basic concept... Mom's wrong.

 

 

Yes, you can use either FOID or CCL, but in the event you only have your CCL, you are not required to show your FOID is what I was trying to say. As I said, I don't agree with blatant disregard of the law (i.e. stores saying "we need to see the FOID b/c it's the law") and stores should be held accountable for that. I know it's been nearly a year and what I'm about to say is absurd, but certain businesses may not be up to speed with the law. I have no problems showing my FOID over CCL (I prefer that, actually) for ammo/firearms purchases since no one needs to know I carry.

 

As for the analogy, I get it, but that's not always the case with parents.


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#24 Rebel1CSA

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 03:00 PM

Honestly I rather show them my FOID card and not my CCL.  I hold to a strict "Concealed means concealed" notion so showing someone my CCL lets them know I have a firearm concealed somewhere on my person therefor defeating my purpose.



#25 Glock23

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 03:10 PM

Honestly I rather show them my FOID card and not my CCL.  I hold to a strict "Concealed means concealed" notion so showing someone my CCL lets them know I have a firearm concealed somewhere on my person therefor defeating my purpose.

 

Having a CCL in no way confirms that one is carrying, any more than a FOID indicates someone actually owns guns, someone with a Driver's License owns a car, etc.

 

Is it an indicator?  Sure.  But it's not definitive.


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#26 cgs

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 04:25 PM

Store clerks just follow the rules set by their management. If time allows, I'll go to Maxons this weekend with my FCCL and a copy of the law.


Edited by cgs, 09 June 2016 - 04:26 PM.

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#27 yyyz

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 04:56 PM

The law can state their requirements. As long as the store is within state requirements, Maxon can ask for additional requirements if they so choose.   


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#28 cgs

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 05:05 PM

The law can state their requirements. As long as the store is within state requirements, Maxon can ask for additional requirements if they so choose.   

I don't dispute that. Doing so would be stupid, but I fully support property owner rights, even to make mistakes.


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#29 blck10th

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Posted 09 June 2016 - 05:43 PM

I may leave my FOID at home from now on. I'd hate to lose both. I see both sides of this. Yes the store should have informed its employees. But who's job is it to inform the store? Places like gander mtn that also have classes should IMO accept whichever you choose to show them. Places like this I'd hope would know the laws that people are teaching inside their business. However, the Walmart or farm and fleet or dicks I can see not doing/knowing this. The other side is people who work there were probably drilled into their heads to see and use the FOID card. I can't fault them for that. Also how much do they really care if you're offended. They make like $9/hr. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

#30 F12Mahon

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Posted 11 June 2016 - 08:06 PM

I bought some .22 at Farm and Fleet in Sterling Friday. Showed my CCL to see if it was accepted. Turns out the cashier was under 21 and she asked me to swipe the ammo across the scanner. After I did that she could bag it.

 

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