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Your opinion on best (suburban) home defense weapon and ammo.


2smartby1/2

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Does anyone have the vid (I think it was actually made by a member here) of testing rifle rounds shot through an old house on someone's property? That was a real eye opener.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AXOIQgfvVlE

Walls in my house are all 1/2” plaster. I wonder how they would hold up to this test. I always figured 5.56/.223 was way too hot for indoors, but every firearm had pretty much the same effect in this test.

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Hi,

 

Haven't decided yet to do anything different, but there are times when I think 12 gauge bird shot is the answer for inside a house.

 

At interior distances, the shot column would be near solid as it reached an intruder. But it would quickly be dispersed as it travelled further.

 

I'm interested in the thoughts of others about this.

 

Rich Phillips

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An AR-15 in 223/5.56 with the right ammo:

1. Is easier to shoot well.

2. More accurate.

3. More decisive (90% of people with handgun wounds to the torso survive if EMS arrives while they're still breathing, 90% of rifle wounds to the torso are DOA to the E.R.).

4. Penetrates LESS than most handgun rounds.

5. Defeats soft body armor that criminals are increasingly wearing (handgun and buckshot rounds won't).

6. Greater magazine capacity to deal with multiple attackers and less likelihood of having to reload.

 

https://youtu.be/MuNiPbtc02g

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Does anyone have the vid (I think it was actually made by a member here) of testing rifle rounds shot through an old house on someone's property? That was a real eye opener.

I think this is the vid you referred to. I'm the ugly(est) guy with the bigger gray beard:

 

https://youtu.be/PbdmQ5IN2j0

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An AR-15 in 223/5.56 with the right ammo:

1. Is easier to shoot well.

2. More accurate.

3. More decisive (90% of people with handgun wounds to the torso survive if EMS arrives while they're still breathing, 90% of rifle wounds to the torso are DOA to the E.R.).

4. Penetrates LESS than most handgun rounds.

5. Defeats soft body armor that criminals are increasingly wearing (handgun and buckshot rounds won't).

6. Greater magazine capacity to deal with multiple attackers and less likelihood of having to reload.https://youtu.be/MuNiPbtc02g

...and it will still blind you after first shot if dark and audibly stun everyone not wearing ear pro.

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Does anyone have the vid (I think it was actually made by a member here) of testing rifle rounds shot through an old house on someone's property? That was a real eye opener.

I think this is the vid you referred to. I'm the ugly(est) guy with the bigger gray beard:

 

Thanks for that. Only got through part of it but will be going back to finish watching.

 

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Does anyone have the vid (I think it was actually made by a member here) of testing rifle rounds shot through an old house on someone's property? That was a real eye opener.

I think this is the vid you referred to. I'm the ugly(est) guy with the bigger gray beard:https://youtu.be/PbdmQ5IN2j0

Geez, you guys are thorough! Still, I'm wondering what a 9-11" AR Pistol would do, seeing as they are traveling much slower than out of a 16" barrel. After seeing this, others and considering the opinions of several people here and elsewhere, there is just no way I'm firing a center fire rifle or 12 gauge shotty indoors. I had a few guys firing ARs at the range a few stalls over from me while I was shooting pistols a few weeks ago. With hearing protection and blocking from two stall walls between us, the sound was jarring and I was getting pelted with their brass every 4th or 5th shot. That was an eye opener.

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An AR-15 in 223/5.56 with the right ammo:

1. Is easier to shoot well.

2. More accurate.

3. More decisive (90% of people with handgun wounds to the torso survive if EMS arrives while they're still breathing, 90% of rifle wounds to the torso are DOA to the E.R.).

4. Penetrates LESS than most handgun rounds.

5. Defeats soft body armor that criminals are increasingly wearing (handgun and buckshot rounds won't).

6. Greater magazine capacity to deal with multiple attackers and less likelihood of having to reload.https://youtu.be/MuNiPbtc02g

...and it will still blind you after first shot if dark and audibly stun everyone not wearing ear pro.

Not true at all, IMHO, especially with the made to task low flash ammo. It's loud with or without ear protection (and hurts without) but "stunning" someone is largely a myth.

 

I've shot thousands of rounds indoors/ in shoot houses. Even an A2 birdcage flash hider is pretty effective, and with a white light in use isn't a big deal at all. Recall our guys in Falluja, Ramadi, Hue, plus all the urban combat in WWII with full house 30-06, 7.92, and 7.62x54 rounds were able to function just fine. Their hearing was reduced over time to be sure, but they still performed admirably with rifle fire indoors. I'll risk being HIGHLY effective and ending an attack rapidly with a rifle caliber vs delayed/ reduced effectiveness with a pistol caliber. There are many reasons almost all military and L.E. entry teams use rifle calibers these days vs pistol caliber carbines of the 80s & 90s, including my old team.

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Does anyone have the vid (I think it was actually made by a member here) of testing rifle rounds shot through an old house on someone's property? That was a real eye opener.

I think this is the vid you referred to. I'm the ugly(est) guy with the bigger gray beard:https://youtu.be/PbdmQ5IN2j0

That's the one! Thank you for putting this together, it played heavily into my home defense arms decision and was a real eye opener. Should be required watching in every one of these threads.
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Those were some pretty good videos....I only made it part way through the 2nd one (the 25 minute one), but I'm not happy about the IMI 77gr OTM keyholing. I have a lot of that ammo (just stocked up), along with a lot of 75gr Frontier OTM. My 10.5" AR pistol is loaded with Frontier 55gr OTM. All of my 55gr FMJ is strictly range ammo. I have a D60 drum loaded with a mix of 62gr LAP and 64gr tracers....so that drum is never to be used as HD ammo.

 

I'm mentioned this before, but never fully expressed it. I don't really like my AR pistol in 5.56. I know that the heavier 75gr and 77gr rounds have really improved the 5.56 AR platform across all barrel lengths, but in the end, that 5.56 round was still optimized for a 20" barrel. That 10.5" is LOUD and dirty. Plus, the +3" KAK can to direct the noise and massive flash negates the point of having a shorter barrel. It isn't much shorter than a 12.5" barrel with an A2 birdcage.

 

It is one of the reasons why I'm looking so hard at .300BLK. The round was designed and optimized for 9" barrels. With most of the powder already burned, there is far less muzzle flash in an SBR. It was also designed to fire both supersonic and subsonic ammo (when suppressed) without any adjustments. Lehigh makes a couple of pretty good subsonic hollow point HD rounds for the .300, although it was meant to NOT expand on dry surfaces....that is a problem.

 

I'm figuring an 8.5" barrel in .300 with a Micro KAK can should net out to about a 10" barrel. Firing high quality subsonic HD ammo might be about as good a mix as I can get. I think I will need get adjustable gas block just to be safe. I don't want to find out that my unsuppressed subsonic ammo isn't cycling properly when I need it the most. More research to come.

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2smart, don't discount the keyholing of the 77 grain OTM, it does the same in live targets. A friend used it from @10 yards in a hostage rescue a couple years ago (bad guy armed with a 357 Magnum which was fired at the team but missed-barely). NONE of the torso hits exited due to tumbling (keyholing) as the long for caliber/ heavy at the base bullet encourages that. Those torso shots were found post mortem between the ribs and skin of the hostage taker's back. He was still somewhat upright and a final shot upward (he was on a stairwell above the team) entered a tear duct and exited out the upper rear of his skull.
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I'm figuring an 8.5" barrel in .300 with a Micro KAK can should net out to about a 10" barrel. Firing high quality subsonic HD ammo might be about as good a mix as I can get. I think I will need get adjustable gas block just to be safe. I don't want to find out that my unsuppressed subsonic ammo isn't cycling properly when I need it the most. More research to come.

 

I basically went through the same exercise and worked with Noveske on my barrel and matched bolt/carrier group. They were very adamant that the advantage of 300blk is you didn't need an adjustable gas black. Their port was tuned to work suppressed, unsupressed, subsonic and supersonic with direct impingement. Granted I haven't tested this on my build due to the legality of cans in Illinois, but they are a reputable company and early on the 300blk bandwagon. They do require a heavier H2 buffer weight.

 

After seeing that 2nd video real world 30 caliber penetrates more then 223. This was counter to why I thought 300blk would be better for home defense on top of making bigger holes. 7.62x39 has similar ballistics to 300blk. But that was fmj's, there's cast and expanding 220gr subsonic available. Still probably too much for home defense in the suburbs.

 

2smart, don't discount the keyholing of the 77 grain OTM, it does the same in live targets. A friend used it from @10 yards in a hostage rescue a couple years ago (bad guy armed with a 357 Magnum which was fired at the team but missed-barely). NONE of the torso hits exited due to tumbling (keyholing) as the long for caliber/ heavy at the base bullet encourages that. Those torso shots were found post mortem between the ribs and skin of the hostage taker's back. He was still somewhat upright and a final shot upward (he was on a stairwell above the team) entered a tear duct and exited out the upper rear of his skull.

Don't discount it, but don't count on it. If a bullet keyholes at the first entry point that's a mismatch of the bullet, barrel length, and twist. That's bad because accuracy suffers big time. This was an issue with early 223 and 5.45x39 until it could be perfected.

 

As to what the bullet does after the first impact is a guessing game. If it keyholes its a bonus, but it's not something you can count on. Hollow point FMJ's shed their jackets and stop penetrating sometimes. Bonded jhp's trade more penetration for less chance of that jacket separating on whatever it passes through first. So bonded is good for shooting through a windshield but probably a poor choice for home defense. You can't reliably depend on either to happen so you need to match odds for a chance of an ideal outcome.

 

FMJ's will sometimes keyhole and if a jacketed hollowpoint doesn't expand (less likely) it can also keyhole. But obviously you wouldn't use any full metal jacket ammo for home defense.

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I'm figuring an 8.5" barrel in .300 with a Micro KAK can should net out to about a 10" barrel. Firing high quality subsonic HD ammo might be about as good a mix as I can get. I think I will need get adjustable gas block just to be safe. I don't want to find out that my unsuppressed subsonic ammo isn't cycling properly when I need it the most. More research to come.

I basically went through the same exercise and worked with Noveske on my barrel and matched bolt/carrier group. They were very adamant that the advantage of 300blk is you didn't need an adjustable gas black. Their port was tuned to work suppressed, unsupressed, subsonic and supersonic with direct impingement. Granted I haven't tested this on my build due to the legality of cans in Illinois, but they are a reputable company and early on the 300blk bandwagon. They do require a heavier H2 buffer weight.

 

 

How is that working? (Just super vs sub ammo) and how long is the barrel? Do you like it? How is the noise and the fireball?

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I'd cast a vote for a Hi Point pistol caliber carbine. Don't laugh - it is super accurate, very economical, short and won't exhibit the massive concussion to be found in ARs or AR pistols. If not that, then any handgun in which you have confidence and ability.

I had one in 9mm with an RDS on it for HD for about 6 months. Not a bad recommendation, IMO. But, note that in Crook County, you're limited to 10 round mags in non-home rule areas without a more permissive gun ordinance. (Then again, they come with only 10 round mags, lol.)

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I'm figuring an 8.5" barrel in .300 with a Micro KAK can should net out to about a 10" barrel. Firing high quality subsonic HD ammo might be about as good a mix as I can get. I think I will need get adjustable gas block just to be safe. I don't want to find out that my unsuppressed subsonic ammo isn't cycling properly when I need it the most. More research to come.

I basically went through the same exercise and worked with Noveske on my barrel and matched bolt/carrier group. They were very adamant that the advantage of 300blk is you didn't need an adjustable gas black. Their port was tuned to work suppressed, unsupressed, subsonic and supersonic with direct impingement. Granted I haven't tested this on my build due to the legality of cans in Illinois, but they are a reputable company and early on the 300blk bandwagon. They do require a heavier H2 buffer weight.

After seeing that 2nd video real world 30 caliber penetrates more then 223. This was counter to why I thought 300blk would be better for home defense on top of making bigger holes. 7.62x39 has similar ballistics to 300blk. But that was fmj's, there's cast and expanding 220gr subsonic available. Still probably too much for home defense in the suburbs.

2smart, don't discount the keyholing of the 77 grain OTM, it does the same in live targets. A friend used it from @10 yards in a hostage rescue a couple years ago (bad guy armed with a 357 Magnum which was fired at the team but missed-barely). NONE of the torso hits exited due to tumbling (keyholing) as the long for caliber/ heavy at the base bullet encourages that. Those torso shots were found post mortem between the ribs and skin of the hostage taker's back. He was still somewhat upright and a final shot upward (he was on a stairwell above the team) entered a tear duct and exited out the upper rear of his skull.

Don't discount it, but don't count on it. If a bullet keyholes at the first entry point that's a mismatch of the bullet, barrel length, and twist. That's bad because accuracy suffers big time. This was an issue with early 223 and 5.45x39 until it could be perfected.

As to what the bullet does after the first impact is a guessing game. If it keyholes its a bonus, but it's not something you can count on. Hollow point FMJ's shed their jackets and stop penetrating sometimes. Bonded jhp's trade more penetration for less chance of that jacket separating on whatever it passes through first. So bonded is good for shooting through a windshield but probably a poor choice for home defense. You can't reliably depend on either to happen so you need to match odds for a chance of an ideal outcome.

FMJ's will sometimes keyhole and if a jacketed hollowpoint doesn't expand (less likely) it can also keyhole. But obviously you wouldn't use any full metal jacket ammo for home defense.

A bullet "upsetting" and tumbling isn't necessarily a bad thing...it's what the 5.45x39 is actually designed to do. The original M-16 SP1s with the slow twist barrels created the anecdotals of the 55 grain bullets in VietNam hitting a shoulder and exiting a pelvis, etc were a result of the same thing: the twist is mated with the bullet to barely stabilize so it upsets on contact and creates more damage as it tumbles through flesh like a football.

 

The Mk262 77 grain OTM does that, and with the Mk262 Mod 1 using a cannelure bullet, it often breaks in half as it tumbles and creates multiple wound channels. M4s with a 1:7 overstabilize bullets, and the high RPMs with 62 grain green tips causes then to often zip right through before it begins to yawn, and simply poking a 22 caliber hole through thin people. That's what was frequently documented in Mogodishu during the Blackhawk Down gunfight, and they resorted to going for head and spine shots. Paul Howe uses a target at CSAT that encourages spine shots due to his experience in that battle.

 

A Hornady 60 grain Vmax TAP load, and the Creedmoor or Black Hills 77 grain TMK loads are both polymer topped, very accurate, and expand reliably. For an interior AR, they are good choices, as is the FBI load of a Federal 62 grain TBBC and the USSS 50 grain TSX. The Speer Gold Dots in every weight are excellent, but will likely penetrate more. Winchester PDX1 is another top pick.

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I'd cast a vote for a Hi Point pistol caliber carbine. Don't laugh - it is super accurate, very economical, short and won't exhibit the massive concussion to be found in ARs or AR pistols. If not that, then any handgun in which you have confidence and ability.

A friend has a AR 45 acp 16" barrel it runs pretty good he had a lot of issues with it at first but once he got the bugs worked out it runs like a champ now

this would be a good pick too

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The Firearms Tactical Institute report recommends #1 Buck

For personal defense and law enforcement applications, the International Wound Ballistics Association advocates number 1 buckshot as being superior to all other buckshot sizes.
Number 1 buck is the smallest diameter shot that reliably and consistently penetrates more than 12 inches of standard ordnance gelatin when fired at typical shotgun engagement distances.
A standard 2 ¾-inch 12 gauge shotshell contains 16 pellets of #1 buck. The total combined cross sectional area of the 16 pellets is 1.13 square inches. Compared to the total combined cross sectional area of the nine pellets in a standard #00 (double-aught) buck shotshell (0.77 square inches), the # 1 buck shotshell has the capacity to produce over 30 percent more potentially effective wound trauma. In all shotshell loads, number 1 buckshot produces more potentially effective wound trauma than either #00 or #000 buck. In addition, number 1 buck is less likely to over-penetrate and exit an attacker's body.

 

 

But the tests I've seen of #4 Buck through 4 layers of denim has me convinced that #4 Buck is effective.
In the IWBA denim protocol, The majority of the #4 Buckshot pellets seem to penetrate 13" to 14" with some of the pellets traveling as far as 15" a few stopping at 11"
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Oh, the second group of shots through the fridge with the AK were with polymer tipped Hornady 123 grain SSTs, two of the three went through the fridge, two walls, and exited the house.

Thanks for pointing that out, I just assumed they were FMJ's and not polymer tipped hollow points. Definitely affirms my decision not to use 300blk in urban and suburban castle defense.

 

A Hornady 60 grain Vmax TAP load, and the Creedmoor or Black Hills 77 grain TMK loads are both polymer topped, very accurate, and expand reliably. For an interior AR, they are good choices, as is the FBI load of a Federal 62 grain TBBC and the USSS 50 grain TSX. The Speer Gold Dots in every weight are excellent, but will likely penetrate more. Winchester PDX1 is another top pick.

This was the other takeaway that there are some 223 rounds that don't overpenetrate when used in home defense.

 

223 in the AR platform still wouldn't be my first choice, but in self defense loads after seeing that vid I wouldn't call it more dangerous for the neighbors then some handgun loads. For certain users it may be a good option if they lacked the strenth or had a handicap that negated the advantages a regular pistol caliber pistol.

 

The shorter overall length of the Tavor or Steyr aug would really benefit over an AR15 for home defense. You get the ideal barrel length while still being able to swing it around doorframes and narrow hallways.

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^^^Tavors function pretty well, but are very expensive. For a simple test of compactness, stand a few feet from a wall (in a safe direction), shoulder a pinned 14.5" or 16" barreled AR, and move forward until the muzzle contacts the wall while in a shooting stance. Now, set aside the AR, draw your pistol, and repeat the exercise.

 

The result: SAME distance to the muzzle. ;)

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