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Optimal expansion or optimal penetration?


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#31 tkroenlein

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Posted 26 August 2018 - 09:29 PM

FMJs are terrible at stopping a threat. HST’s +P in everything I carry.

#32 ultra magnus

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 07:24 PM

I use Federal Guard Dog rounds.  They are basically hollow points with a "cover" that will go through leather etc and then expand.  Regular hollow points can jam up in denim or leather, and then they act like FMJs and just keep on flying.  These look like wadcutter rounds, and feed as well as anything I've seen.   Kind of hard to find, for some reason.  If you see them somewhere, buy 'em up.  


They are hard to find because they suck. They exist to circumnavigate hollow point laws. They beat fmj if you live somewhere that hollowpoints are ilegal but there performance in both penetration and expansion are sub par (even through clothing denim etc) compared to a good modern hollow point like HST or Golddot.

#33 quackersmacker

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 08:48 PM

Somehow I'm guessing professional reviewers might just know a bit more about these.  According to the last article they got scarce for civilians in this country because of heavy demand from law enforcement.  Happy reading.

 

http://www.handgunsm...dog-ammunition/

 

https://www.usconcea...nse-ammunition/

 

https://www.american...uard-dog-loads/

 

https://www.range365...-bullets#page-4

 

https://www.shooting...eral-guard-dog/


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#34 Gamma

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:00 PM

Somehow I'm guessing professional reviewers might just know a bit more about these.  According to the last article they got scarce for civilians in this country because of heavy demand from law enforcement.  Happy reading.
 
http://www.handgunsm...dog-ammunition/
 
https://www.usconcea...nse-ammunition/
 
https://www.american...uard-dog-loads/
 
https://www.range365...-bullets#page-4
 
https://www.shooting...eral-guard-dog/

They're a specialty product for New Jersey due to their ban on hollowpoints, probably made in batches.
Illinois' FCCA is a prime example of the maxim that sufficiently advanced incompetence is indistinguishable from malice.

#35 ultra magnus

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Posted 27 August 2018 - 10:28 PM

Somehow I'm guessing professional reviewers might just know a bit more about these.  According to the last article they got scarce for civilians in this country because of heavy demand from law enforcement.  Happy reading.

 

http://www.handgunsm...dog-ammunition/

 

https://www.usconcea...nse-ammunition/

 

https://www.american...uard-dog-loads/

 

https://www.range365...-bullets#page-4

 

https://www.shooting...eral-guard-dog/

 

Actually it doesn't . it states

 

"Originally, the EFMJ was thought of as a bullet for European countries, where hollow-point bullets are not permitted. But after word got out, American law enforcement agencies wanted it, too. This led Federal to offer LE ammunition loaded with EFMJ bullets in 9 mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP. The company also offered EFMJ bullets for these same cartridges in its Personal Defense line of ammunition. The difference: LE ammo is loaded with heavier bullets for deeper penetration."

 

So we have confirmation that it was designed to skirt hollow point laws. It doesn't mention LE demand, but does mention the LE version of Guard dog is a completely different load.

​The American rrifleman and 365 artiarticles do side by sides of guard dog and hst in which hst outperforms it in weight retention, penetration and expansion. In one test it fails to make 12 even in bare gel.

 

The PDs that use it are ones that are not allowed hp ammo btw.



#36 2A4Cook

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Posted 28 August 2018 - 06:03 AM

I use either Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T (depending on availability), 147 grain, in everything, including my LC9s Pro. Watch shootingthebull410's short barreled 9mm pistol ammo evaluation video series on youtube. Those two rounds beat anything. They penetrate between 12" and 18", expand perfectly, and expand to an extremely large diameter for caliber. From a 3" barrel!

When I can't find either, I'll fall back on either Win Train and Defend 147 grain, or Remington Golden Sabers. For .38 special, go with Buffalo Bore +P's (hp variety), but practice with something tamer.

Using some high tech "murder round" will put you at risk should you ever wake up to that dreaded day when you have no choice but to defend yourself. You WILL be portrayed by an Illinois prosecutor as some kind of vigilante "Death Wish" character just waiting for the chance to shoot somebody. I would never take that risk when there is standard LEO ammo available that will do the job quite nicely. May as well just get a set of Punisher grips and a holster with a blood splatter paint job to join the murder ammo in the evidence locker.

#37 Euler

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Posted 28 August 2018 - 01:56 PM

...
Using some high tech "murder round" will put you at risk should you ever wake up to that dreaded day when you have no choice but to defend yourself. You WILL be portrayed by an Illinois prosecutor as some kind of vigilante "Death Wish" character just waiting for the chance to shoot somebody. I would never take that risk when there is standard LEO ammo available that will do the job quite nicely. May as well just get a set of Punisher grips and a holster with a blood splatter paint job to join the murder ammo in the evidence locker.


When I read that, what comes to mind is:

G2 Research has entered the market with a new line of self-defense ammunition that is built around concealability. The ... radically invasive projectile (RIP) is a new twist in the line of hollow point defense.

The ... Radically Invasive Projectile (RIP) is a solid copper hollow point that has been fragmented into multiple projectiles along the bullets nose. Upon impact, the six razor sharp edges that form the bullet’s face separate from the body of the projectile outward into a conical pattern. This approach utilizes the complete opposite effect of bullet retention, and instead seeks to break the round into 7 distinct projectiles (six projectiles plus to core of the bullet) that each individual cause sharp force trauma within the terminal cavity.

The six individual RIPs that construct the bullets nose are individually capable of penetrating multiple layers of dense fabric, and inflict simultaneous injuries upon impact. This effect is capable of stopping even the gravest of threats, and takes ... lethality to level previous unheard of for small caliber rounds.


However, independent reviews indicate that it barely penetrates anything or does much damage at all. Basically they came up with a name and marketing some people will think is cool, but I'd bet juries will think is sociopathic. Compare their marketing photo to the verbal description.
9mmRIP.png
CD-2.png
I'm inclined to think they just peeled back the blades with a pair of pliers.

Also, you left out the "Kill them all" T-shirt.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.
- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.

#38 2A4Cook

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Posted 28 August 2018 - 02:54 PM

...Using some high tech "murder round" will put you at risk should you ever wake up to that dreaded day when you have no choice but to defend yourself. You WILL be portrayed by an Illinois prosecutor as some kind of vigilante "Death Wish" character just waiting for the chance to shoot somebody. I would never take that risk when there is standard LEO ammo available that will do the job quite nicely. May as well just get a set of Punisher grips and a holster with a blood splatter paint job to join the murder ammo in the evidence locker.

When I read that, what comes to mind is:

G2 Research has entered the market with a new line of self-defense ammunition that is built around concealability. The ... radically invasive projectile (RIP) is a new twist in the line of hollow point defense.The ... Radically Invasive Projectile (RIP) is a solid copper hollow point that has been fragmented into multiple projectiles along the bullets nose. Upon impact, the six razor sharp edges that form the bullet’s face separate from the body of the projectile outward into a conical pattern. This approach utilizes the complete opposite effect of bullet retention, and instead seeks to break the round into 7 distinct projectiles (six projectiles plus to core of the bullet) that each individual cause sharp force trauma within the terminal cavity.The six individual RIPs that construct the bullets nose are individually capable of penetrating multiple layers of dense fabric, and inflict simultaneous injuries upon impact. This effect is capable of stopping even the gravest of threats, and takes ... lethality to level previous unheard of for small caliber rounds.

However, independent reviews indicate that it barely penetrates anything or does much damage at all. Basically they came up with a name and marketing some people will think is cool, but I'd bet juries will think is sociopathic. Compare their marketing photo to the verbal description.9mmRIP.pngCD-2.pngI'm inclined to think they just peeled back the blades with a pair of pliers.Also, you left out the "Kill them all" T-shirt.

Hilarious! So, they are basically stating photographically that their bullet doesn't break up into those 7 distinct projectiles as intended. I highly doubt those things would feed in any pistol with tight tolerances, either. I once tried a few boxes of murder bullets at the range; they refused to feed in the Sig P238/938 pistols I tried them in. Never let minor gripes like failing to chamber interfere with your opportunity of taking out an entire crime organization with six shots ala John Wick!

#39 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 05 September 2018 - 06:35 PM

I use either Federal HST or Winchester Ranger T (depending on availability), 147 grain, in everything, including my LC9s Pro. Watch shootingthebull410's short barreled 9mm pistol ammo evaluation video series on youtube. Those two rounds beat anything. They penetrate between 12" and 18", expand perfectly, and expand to an extremely large diameter for caliber. From a 3" barrel!

When I can't find either, I'll fall back on either Win Train and Defend 147 grain, or Remington Golden Sabers. For .38 special, go with Buffalo Bore +P's (hp variety), but practice with something tamer.

Using some high tech "murder round" will put you at risk should you ever wake up to that dreaded day when you have no choice but to defend yourself. You WILL be portrayed by an Illinois prosecutor as some kind of vigilante "Death Wish" character just waiting for the chance to shoot somebody. I would never take that risk when there is standard LEO ammo available that will do the job quite nicely. May as well just get a set of Punisher grips and a holster with a blood splatter paint job to join the murder ammo in the evidence locker.

 

So, an eco-friendly, all-copper round that has "Defender" in its title is a murder round? Or an eco-friendly copper projectile that is meant to expand exactly as other rounds, but more reliably, and is marketed as a self-defense load, from a company named "Lehigh Defense" are considered "murder rounds"? Interesting.


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
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Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#40 C0untZer0

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Posted 06 September 2018 - 08:21 PM

Trocar !

 

There, I said it.


“Most gun control arguments miss the point. If all control boils fundamentally to force, how can one resist aggression without equal force? How can a truly “free” state exist if the individual citizen is enslaved to the forceful will of individual or organized aggressors?
 
 It cannot.” 

 

― Tiffany Madison― 


#41 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 05:57 PM

Trocar !

 

There, I said it.

 

RIP rounds in actual flesh targets are a shallow, ineffective mess. The trocars barely penetrate the outer muscle and rarely through ribcages and definitely not through shoulder blades.


"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#42 MagSlap

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:25 PM

...a particular round of choice... :fear:

26063-DEFAULT-l.jpg



#43 MagSlap

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 09:27 PM

...a particular round of choice... :fear:

26063-DEFAULT-l.jpg

 

ETA:

Personally? I despise 'boutique' rounds.  If it comes in a 20 round box..fuggetaboutit....


Edited by MagSlap, 11 September 2018 - 09:28 PM.


#44 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 11:03 PM

 

...a particular round of choice... :fear:

26063-DEFAULT-l.jpg

 

ETA:

Personally? I despise 'boutique' rounds.  If it comes in a 20 round box..fuggetaboutit....

 

 

The Ranger-T JHPs are among the top performers in pig carcasses among "industry standard" defense rounds, I found. Along with Speer Gold Dots, they are the most consistent expanders and do a considerable amount of tissue damage that appears to be due to tearing of tissue from the jacket. However, they deform significantly upon hitting bone, as do just about every other JHP, which reduces the expansion and thus the the damage. They do more damage with abdominal shots (at which they are fantastic) than ribcage shots, and shoulder-blade shots or shots that hit thick bone flatten out the cavity, which does also affect their in-tissue effectiveness. With skull shots, since the bone is thinner and flatter, they actually perform quite well, rapidly expanding and causing "watermeloning" of the brain vault (it blows up/bursts the skull). They will clog up (and thus not expand at all) through thick leather or thick skin, as do all non-filled JHPs, and act like FMJs in such situations. Against barriers, they are marginal, as are most traditionally constructed JHPs.

 

These are what I used to carry, before I found the Lehigh/Underwood Xtreme rounds, and still carried them as my hollow points until I found the Lehigh/Underwood Maximum Expansion hollow points. The .40 S&W and .45 ACP Ranger-T rounds perform significantly better than the 9mm versions (and the Speer Gold Dots do in those do as well), most likely due to the fact that the larger hollow point cavity doesn't clog or collapse/deform upon hitting material or bone/barriers.

 

As a traditional JHP choice, are as good as anything out there; they and the Speer Gold Dots are about neck-in-neck in actual tissue terminal ballistics.

 

But, again, about half as effective as the Maximum Expansion rounds in terms of barrier blindness and expansion damage.

 

And compared to the Xtreme projectiles, they don't compare at all in terms of consistent damage, bone damage, and the ability to cause that damage after passing through barriers or bone.


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 11 September 2018 - 11:05 PM.

"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#45 ChicagoRonin70

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Posted 11 September 2018 - 11:44 PM

 

Trocar !

 

There, I said it.

 

RIP rounds in actual flesh targets are a shallow, ineffective mess. The trocars barely penetrate the outer muscle and rarely through ribcages and definitely not through shoulder blades.

 

 

I will say that the multiple secondary fragmenting projectile concept works MUCH better in a shotgun-type projectile. Look up the Hexolit 32 and Dupo 28 for videos of this in practice.

 

Here is an X-ray analysis of the Hexolit slug in an actual boar that was hunted with it. The multiple fragmenting is visible on the imaging; that's what's needed for a fragmenting projectile to have improved effectiveness over a single projectile.

 

 

You can see the wound tracks of the fragments and the center main slug here:

 

 


Edited by ChicagoRonin70, 11 September 2018 - 11:58 PM.

"A well educated Media, being necessary for the preservation of a free State, the right of the people to keep and read books, shall not be infringed."

 

"A well regulated Militia, being necessary for the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."

 

“One can never underestimate the idiocy of those determined to be offended by things that don't affect their real lives in the slightest.” —Me
 
“Hatred is the sharpest sword; the desire for peace is armor made of willow leaves in the face of an enemy who despises you, as neither alone will stop a strike that is aimed at your neck.” —Samurai proverb
 
“An armed society is a polite society. Manners are good when one may have to back up his acts with his life.” —Robert Heinlein
 
“I reserve the right to take any action necessary to maintain the equilibrium in which I've chosen to exist.” —Me
 
"It ain't braggin' if you done it." —Will Rogers

 

Gb1XExdm.jpg
 
 

 
 
 
 


#46 ArmedWithKnowledge

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Posted 02 October 2018 - 10:21 AM

Do NOT use FMJ in your defensive weapon. To do so puts whatever is behind your target at risk (wife, kids, other family, innocent bystanders, neighbors, etc). Buy a reliable and effective JHP round and you will have the perfect balance of penetration and expansion. The entire point of a self-defense weapon is to stop a potential attacker. modern jacketed hollowpoint rounds (like Federal HSTs for example) are specifically engineered to penetrate to the appropriate 12-18 inches necessary to hit vital organs, and also to expand to a size that will cause enough trauma to said organs to quickly drop the assailant. Nothing is perfect, but FMJs are not only much less effective than JHPs, but they risk innocent lives. Please be a responsible gun owner, keep the FMJs for the range.



#47 2smartby1/2

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 11:36 AM

I have Critical Defense rounds in all my carry guns.

 

I added a box of Critical Defense to my latest order from Brownell's.   I want to the range yesterday, but the Brownells package didn't arrive until after I had returned, so I didn't get a chance to test a few rounds out. 

 

I now have a mag loaded with it, but I won't run it until I test it first. 

 

I debated between this and Critical Duty, but went with Defense.  I will keep two mags in the vehicle....one with Critical Defense loaded up, and a spare mag with IMI JHP. 



#48 C0untZer0

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Posted 25 October 2018 - 07:21 PM

For people who want deep penetrating rounds there is the 135gr Hydra-Shok Deep

 

 
 

“Most gun control arguments miss the point. If all control boils fundamentally to force, how can one resist aggression without equal force? How can a truly “free” state exist if the individual citizen is enslaved to the forceful will of individual or organized aggressors?
 
 It cannot.” 

 

― Tiffany Madison― 


#49 brianj - now in Kansas

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 11:18 AM

 

I have Critical Defense rounds in all my carry guns.

 

I added a box of Critical Defense to my latest order from Brownell's.   I want to the range yesterday, but the Brownells package didn't arrive until after I had returned, so I didn't get a chance to test a few rounds out. 

 

I now have a mag loaded with it, but I won't run it until I test it first. 

 

I debated between this and Critical Duty, but went with Defense.  I will keep two mags in the vehicle....one with Critical Defense loaded up, and a spare mag with IMI JHP. 

 

 

In theory (according to Hornady), the only major difference between Critical Duty and Critical Defense is barrier blindness.  Critical Duty was supposed to have smoked the last FBI barrier penetration test and now has a contract with them to supply duty ammo.  Critical Defense, on the other hand, is supposed to start expanding much more quickly.

 

I have a Colt Defender-sized 1911 with a non-ramped barrel, and Guard Dog (see above) and Critical Duty/Critical Defense are the only self defense rounds that seem to chamber reliably in it.  Forget Speer, HST, Ranger, anything else.  I don't want to carry the Critical Duty because the 45 ACP version of it is +P, and my 1911 isn't rated for +P.  So, right now I've got Critical Defense because it's easier to find than Guard Dog (and probably a bit more barrier blind: I'd love to know how Guard Dog and Critical Defense work with thin sheet metal, for instance).

 

For my 9's, they use either HST short barrel, or Sig.

 

Bri


Edited by brianj - now in Kansas, 26 October 2018 - 11:21 AM.

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#50 AlphaKoncepts aka CGS

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Posted 26 October 2018 - 12:06 PM

I'll take a balance of the two but expansion is more important because over penetration is a very bad thing. I can shoot twice, but I can't take a bullet back. 

At the following link you will see how and why I selected HST's in my carry gun. It is a review of the p320, but I also discuss carry ammo. 

http://www.alphakonc...sig-sauer-p320/


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