vito Posted February 20, 2019 at 03:33 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 03:33 PM Although we have to file a 4473 whenever we buy a gun, supposedly the government does not maintain a record of such. And while FFL dealers must maintain records on their sales, if a government agency wants to know how many guns an individual might own, realistically how do they go about finding that out? The recent shooting in Aurora very quickly led to the information that the now deceased killer had legally bought the gun in 2014. I wonder how they found this out; did they go to all the local gun shops and licensed dealers and quickly review by the shooter's name? I understand how the ISP knew the person had a FOID, and had a record of their denial of the CCL, but not clear about how they determined that the shooter owned a single firearm and exactly what it was. Personally I can well remember before there was such a thing as the 4473. But even with completing that form, it seems unlikely that the ATF or the ISP could go back many, many years and still know what guns you have purchased, if in fact they cannot retain the records indefinitely. Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soylentgreen Posted February 20, 2019 at 03:48 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 03:48 PM My guess is it wasn't a problem to find out information on this guy. They knew he had a FOID at one time. I'm sure they simply had to type his name in a database and up came his FOID info. Once they have that, I imagine they can easily trace back to which gun dealer sold him guns (or at least ran his FOID). Then, I guess they'd have to visit the gun dealer and request the records. I presume they'd have a date and I presume the gun dealer's records would be organized enough to find the paperwork. As for what law enforcement does do and what they can do and what they're supposed to be allowed to do, I wouldn't trust them or put any limits on them. During the Blago Administration, I remember the state was bound by law to destroy certain information after a certain length of time, but the state refused and nothing happened. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:02 PM Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:02 PM Does the ISP maintain a record of every time someone checks up on a FOID? A private individual thinking of selling a gun to someone has to check the FOID, but that does not mean that a sale was actually made. But I guess the bigger takeaway from all of this is to assume that the ISP or some other government agency probably knows most if not all of the guns that any of us own if they are motivated to look into the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nod Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:09 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:09 PM Interesting question. Two of my guns were bought 20+ years ago from gun stores that have been out of business for at least 15 years. I wonder if there is still a record of those sales somewhere? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:19 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:19 PM Does the ISP maintain a record of every time someone checks up on a FOID? A private individual thinking of selling a gun to someone has to check the FOID, but that does not mean that a sale was actually made. But I guess the bigger takeaway from all of this is to assume that the ISP or some other government agency probably knows most if not all of the guns that any of us own if they are motivated to look into the matter. The ISP has never purged it's FTIP system. They argue it's their system and they don't have to purge it. So, the ISP knows how many background checks have been done on you in their system. They only know if it's a handgun, long gun, or both. They don't know make or model or the number of firearms in the purchase. They have to go to the dealer and look at the 4473 for the specifics. So basically, if you made the purchase in IL, the ISP has a pretty good idea of what you have. Under federal law, NICS checks are purged in 48 hrs, if memory serves, automatically for non-disqualifying checks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vito Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:22 PM Author Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:22 PM I lived in Texas a long time ago. I remember buying my first gun in 1966 in a department store in their sporting good department. I paid cash, never even was asked to show a driver's license. I wish I still had that little "Baby Browning", 25acp semi auto, but I traded it away close to 50 years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:24 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:24 PM Interesting question. Two of my guns were bought 20+ years ago from gun stores that have been out of business for at least 15 years. I wonder if there is still a record of those sales somewhere?Someone with an FFL could give you a definite answer, but I BELIEVE that a FFL dealer must keep all their 4473 forms indefinitely. If they give up their license they are required to turn over those records to the ATF. Again, I BELIEVE the ATF will just store them and not record the sales or enter them in a database. I may be wrong on parts or all of this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigcelia Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:30 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:30 PM I don't see how the State of Federal governments could know what firearms you have. For one, that would be a type of registration but for those who buy and sell guns, that 4473 doesn't mention any information about the firearm does it?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:31 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:31 PM Interesting question. Two of my guns were bought 20+ years ago from gun stores that have been out of business for at least 15 years. I wonder if there is still a record of those sales somewhere?The ATF has your 4473's somewhere. https://www.fbi.gov/services/cjis/nics Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:37 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:37 PM For one, that would be a type of registration Bingo! We have a winner!!! Richard Pearson still brings this up from time to time. Was a big deal back when the Brady Law and the NICS was tweaked to purge non-disqualifying checks. The state of IL and the ISP basically held up their middle finger to the Feds, even though it's a federal law that allows the FTIP system in the first place. The Feds backed off and nobody has taken the state to court over this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:45 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:45 PM I don't see how the State of Federal governments could know what firearms you have. For one, that would be a type of registration but for those who buy and sell guns, that 4473 doesn't mention any information about the firearm does it??Section D of the 4473 lists the gun info and serial number. It’s filled out by the FFL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
quackersmacker Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:50 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:50 PM This forum never disappoints in terms of speculation, beliefs, and guesses. This might be helpful: https://www.thetrace.org/2016/07/how-a-gun-trace-works-atf-ffl/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Craigcelia Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:50 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:50 PM Section D of the 4473 lists the gun info and serial number. It’s filled out by the FFL. Wow, I had no idea. Is that then kept by the FFL or do they send that in? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DomG Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:54 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 04:54 PM Section D of the 4473 lists the gun info and serial number. Its filled out by the FFL.Wow, I had no idea. Is that then kept by the FFL or do they send that in?FFL keep them indefinitely. Like I stated above, I BELIEVE they must turn over the 4473 files to the ATF when they give up their FFL. Google 4473. Look at the images. Go to section D. But to answer your question specifically, the FFL does not report what kind of gun you purchased. They just have to keep it on file. The government knows EXACTLY what guns go to an FFL. If one of those guns gets used in a crime, they go to the FFL. The FFL has to have records of the sale to show that it was legal. Then they go from there. My buddy is an FFL. A gun he sold was used in a suicide. The ATF knocked on his door. He had the records of a legal sale to the guy who killed himself. No further issues for him. Thats why I keep records forever of all my gun sales, regardless of the time limit the law states. The trail may lead to me, but I have proof they went legally somewhere else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinson Posted February 20, 2019 at 05:42 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 05:42 PM https://www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/how-long-are-licensees-required-maintain-atf-forms-4473 Licensees shall retain each ATF Form 4473 for a period of not less than 20 years after the date of sale or disposition. Where a licensee has initiated a National Instant Background Check System (NICS) check for a proposed firearms transaction, but the sale, delivery, or transfer of the firearm is not made, the licensee shall record any transaction number on the Form 4473, and retain the Form 4473 for a period of not less than 5 years after the date of the NICS inquiry.[18 U.S.C. 923(g)(1)(A); 27 CFR 478.129(]Last Reviewed June 20, 2018 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bird76Mojo Posted February 20, 2019 at 05:55 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 05:55 PM I'm surprised that no one here has mentioned that the BATFE is currently in the process of converting/entering all of their (turned in by dealers closing) 4473 forms in to a computer database. Apparently they've been at it for a while. It'll probably take them a decade. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Odinson Posted February 20, 2019 at 06:16 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 06:16 PM I'm surprised that no one here has mentioned that the BATFE is currently in the process of converting/entering all of their (turned in by dealers closing) 4473 forms in to a computer database. Apparently they've been at it for a while. It'll probably take them a decade.Even more data being generated for them as the new onerous regulations and fees put more dealers out of business. Socialism is so easy to figure out! Capitalism is harder as you actually have to figure out how to create a profitable business that provides something that people need, as well as evolve over time to keep said business flourishing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RandyP Posted February 20, 2019 at 07:10 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 07:10 PM And so, when a mom-n-pop gun shoppe closes because the owners die, and not knowing any better the estate handlers throw out all the files, or paper records get lost/destroyed in a flood or fire, or firearms over the generations suffer boating accidents or are suddenly discovered to be stolen when the owner is told to get them and turn them in, or they are claimed to have been given to someone in another State who is now deceased with no family...…….………. etc.etc.etc. Yep, that whole confiscate by law enforcement agents or voluntary turn-in thing should work just fine, I see no potential for problems. lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spanishjames Posted February 20, 2019 at 07:12 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 07:12 PM And while FFL dealers must maintain records on their sales, if a government agency wants to know how many guns an individual might own, realistically how do they go about finding that out? The recent shooting in Aurora very quickly led to the information that the now deceased killer had legally bought the gun in 2014. I wonder how they found this out; did they go to all the local gun shops and licensed dealers and quickly review by the shooter's name? They start with the gun, not the owner of the gun. They trace it to manufacturer, distributor, FFL, and finally the original purchaser. In other words, it would be difficult to find out what firearms you own, but can easily trace a specific gun to you if they have to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Molly B. Posted February 20, 2019 at 09:29 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 09:29 PM They start with the gun, not the owner of the gun. They trace it to manufacturer, distributor, FFL, and finally the original purchaser. In other words, it would be difficult to find out what firearms you own, but can easily trace a specific gun to you if they have to. Here you go. This why they could find the info about the purchase so quickly. They had the gun and serial number to start the trace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tip Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:22 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:22 PM ...now deceased killer had legally bought the gun in 2014..... The gun WAS NOT legally purchased. It could NOT be legally purchased. The buyer WAS prohibited from making a legal purchase at the time of purchase. It wasnât legal. We all need to quit perpetuating the erroneous myth that it was. The system failed to stop an ILLEGAL purchase! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:23 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:23 PM I'm looking at the question from a different perspective. As a law abiding IL resident having purchased all or most of your firearms from a dealer in IL, the state police have a pretty good idea what you own from looking you up on their end since none of the FTIP data has ever been purged. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
firepiper Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:32 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:32 PM I'm looking at the question from a different perspective. As a law abiding IL resident having purchased all or most of your firearms from a dealer in IL, the state police have a pretty good idea what you own from looking you up on their end since none of the FTIP data has ever been purged. Absolutely...there is a member here who while living in the suburbs had Chicago and ISP show up at his door with a list of his firearms and requested to see them. If I recall correctly, he was unaware that a family member had stolen one. He made a call to Todd Vandermyde. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:35 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:35 PM If it's the same case, thought they showed up at his desk at work and they knew exactly what he owned when they showed up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim123 Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:47 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:47 PM I bet they could trace a gun all the way back to the dirt the metals were mined from. Year, date, and during which shift along with names of supervisors, employees, and time clock information. Edit to add "a gun made in the last 25 years" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anonymous too Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:56 PM Share Posted February 20, 2019 at 11:56 PM My point is as in IL resident and made your purchases from a dealer since the FTIP era started, the state police pretty much knows how many handguns and long guns you've purchased and probably still have in your possession. The exception is the person who has bought, sold, and traded many firearms privately over the last 30 yrs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jim schad Posted February 21, 2019 at 12:49 PM Share Posted February 21, 2019 at 12:49 PM Again, turned in my FFL black in the Clinton/Reno era. At that time all the 4473's were sent to an address in GA where they were to be "stored." Make what you will on what could be done with anything turned in like that as there were tens of thousands of FFL's that walked away at that time... Nice little chart here, although I can't verify its accuracy. http://www.hoplofobia.info/wp-content/uploads/2014/03/History_of_FFL_License.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted February 21, 2019 at 01:34 PM Share Posted February 21, 2019 at 01:34 PM Gun Stores are required to keep their "bound books" at minimum for 20 years. Therefore at minimum 20 years the ATF can trace gun ownership. However keeping the bound books forever seems to be more common of gun stores. And, if the gun store goes out of business they are to turn over the bound book to the ATF. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AlphaKoncepts aka CGS Posted February 21, 2019 at 01:35 PM Share Posted February 21, 2019 at 01:35 PM For those who post their guns on social media, you've created a registry for the government that will never go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hap Posted February 21, 2019 at 04:43 PM Share Posted February 21, 2019 at 04:43 PM For those who post their guns on social media, you've created a registry for the government that will never go away.It's reasonable to expect that any mention of any firearm in any sort of electronic communication - even a transient one such as text messages or email - creates a record which will never go away. The record may be in some relatively inaccessible NSA database of electronic communications but it will be there somewhere, and, over time, will become more accessible. To think otherwise is to bet against continued increases in storage capacity and computing power, which is one of the worst bets you can make. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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