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SB 1966 and another possible angle of attack--please consider


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#1 Safegirl51

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:03 PM

HI everyone,

 

I've been keeping a close eye on the attempted passage of SB 1966 by Kathleen Willis and her anti-gun friends in Springfield. I have been and will continue to file witness slips to oppose this nasty legislation.

 

I am seeing so many things mentioned about how the bill (and the FOID act in general) hurt law-abiding gun owners. There seems to be an especially strong emphasis as to how folks of lower socioeconomic status would be disadvantaged by the outrageous fees imposed on them, along with driving distances, etc.

 

I am concerned, however, that folks of lower socioeconomic status are already being hurt financially in another way because of the FOID Act, and that pain seems to be getting very little to no attention with gun rights groups.

 

What I'm talking about is mental health prohibitors applied to people who voluntarily take care of themselves (including those who get the prohibitors for having adverse physical medical problems), and those people (especially those in a Chicagoland collar county) having little to no method of making an effective appeal to the ISP. Providers who deal with this matter are hard to come by, and even if they can be found, they cost lots of $$$. Sure, a regular doctor can apparently sign off on a certification, but in a collar county that can be very difficult as the area is strongly Democrat and anti-gun.

 

In effect, not only are the poorest (and medically sickest) among us possibly going to get priced out of FOID cards under the SB 1966, those people are still being priced out of the very evaluations and certifications that Ms Willis demands. How is THIS moral or ethical?

 

Even worse, I just caught this chestnut in Amendment 2: 

 

    10100SB1966ham002 - 2 - LRB101 09230 RLC 61140 a  

1   Services shall coordinate to use moneys in the Fund to finance 2   their respective duties of collecting and reporting data on 3   mental health records and ensuring that mental health firearm 4   possession prohibitors are enforced as set forth under the 5   Firearm Concealed Carry Act and the Firearm Owners 6   Identification Card Act, including reporting prohibitors to 7   the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS).

 

 

Ok, so now are people that are merely denied (not revoked or suspended) going to get reported to NICS with this? And what if the issue a person has is related to severe physical problems?  Lots of physical problems these days are treated as intertwined with mental illness. Had a heart attack, for example? You may be depressed. Have a stomach issue? You may have anxiety. And on and on. Plain and simple, if you end up in a hospital for ANY reason and need psych support, you run the risk of getting a prohibitor slapped on you. And then a person has to fight like heck to get an appeal?

 

What about medical privacy for those prohibited who haven't even authorized the release of records? (pre-appeal)

 

How is this fair?  If people of lower socioeconomic status need to get evaluations and certifications, who will provide them and at an affordable cost? And don't think a health department will do it (where the poorest generally seek care). Check out this info from a page from LAKE COUNTY and their refusal to do evaluations:

 

"Who is not eligible?


Our program is funded to treat chronic mental illness, and the following exclusions apply, as we are not funded for the populations or services below: 

  • Developmental disability (those who have moderate or severe mental retardation)
  • Residents of nursing homes or any other 24-hour residential treatment program
  • Those requesting only psychological testing
  • Those wanting only evaluations for other agencies, such as DCFS, Social Security, lawyers, etc. (The only evaluations we perform are of clients who are ordered by the Lake County Courts to evaluate the need for treatment.)
  • Those in need of a higher level of care than outpatient services, such as needing emergency psychiatric hospitalization due to potential for harmful behavior"

At the following link--  https://www.lakecoun...Health-Services

 

Did you catch that? They are "not funded for the populations or services below" which include "[T]hose wanting only evaluations for other agencies...."

 

That is pathetic. Not funded????  And it's shameful to deny 2nd amendment rights to people in this situation who merely can't even afford an appeal.

 

PLEASE consider this as another angle from the perspective of wronged people of lower socioeconomic status.

 

IF we MUST insist on forcing people with VOLUNTARY care to get an evaluation or certification, they need better access to someone who will DO one at all. It's my observation that many in the medical establishment seem to have little to no understanding of how to handle FOID evaluation or certification requests and just outright deny their patients legit appeals. That needs to change. It's not fair, not moral, and reprehensible to those of lower socioeconomic status.

 

 

 

Thank you for letting me holler from my soapbox. This whole thing is so saddening. And maddening.  :mad(  :ermm:


Edited by Safegirl51, 24 May 2019 - 08:13 PM.


#2 Euler

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:26 PM

It's not new that people who seek voluntary counseling are denied their 2A rights. Obama had issued an executive order that people receiving SSI or VA benefits for psych counseling should be prohibited in NICS. Congress later passed a law, which Trump signed, overriding that executive order. In the meantime, people who could have benefited from counseling chose not to get it for fear of becoming prohibited in NICS.

Edited by Euler, 24 May 2019 - 08:26 PM.

The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

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#3 Safegirl51

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 08:31 PM

It's not new that people who seek voluntary counseling are denied their 2A rights. Obama had issued an executive order that people receiving SSI or VA benefits for psych counseling should be prohibited in NICS. Congress later passed a law, which Trump signed, overriding that executive order. In the meantime, people who could have benefited from counseling chose not to get it for fear of becoming prohibited in NICS.

 

Regarding voluntary care and denial of 2nd amendment rights, I'm learning of that more and more. In the case of Illinois, though, an eval or certification is demanded but to get one is very difficult. This to me seems like a unreasonable barrier for the poorest among us.



#4 IH8IL

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Posted 24 May 2019 - 10:36 PM

The thing is. Its not about keeping guns away from bad people. Its just another piece of the pie for them which is a total ban.

#5 wolfcreek

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 05:31 AM

Just wanted to add my two cents.I went to a hospital(by choice) in 2013 for 4 days.At suggestion of my doctor.Depression! Three days after arriving home I got my letter from ISP to turn over my FOID.Which I did.  Just after 5 years I got my $1000.00 evaluation.Passed with flying colors.Did everything.Got conformation my paperwork was recived by ISP.That was Aug 29 2018.I was told 90 days.Then 3 to 6 months.Then 1 to 2 years.Then "Who Knows".phone calls,e-mails etc,etc.I was thinking of contacting the united states supreme court,but no answer.Oh yea.I had a traffic ticket in 1986.That must be it !.Reminds me of a saying.Play ball with us kid.well shove the bat right up your a__.Gotta run.have to check the mail for a letter from ISP



#6 Safegirl51

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 01:37 PM

Just wanted to add my two cents.I went to a hospital(by choice) in 2013 for 4 days.At suggestion of my doctor.Depression! Three days after arriving home I got my letter from ISP to turn over my FOID.Which I did.  Just after 5 years I got my $1000.00 evaluation.Passed with flying colors.Did everything.Got conformation my paperwork was recived by ISP.That was Aug 29 2018.I was told 90 days.Then 3 to 6 months.Then 1 to 2 years.Then "Who Knows".phone calls,e-mails etc,etc.I was thinking of contacting the united states supreme court,but no answer.Oh yea.I had a traffic ticket in 1986.That must be it !.Reminds me of a saying.Play ball with us kid.well shove the bat right up your a__.Gotta run.have to check the mail for a letter from ISP

Good grief Wolf! I've heard something about the lengthy delays and wonder if appeals for anything are even worth it. Unfortunately, my main concern now is that people with prohibitors who help themselves voluntarily, and especially those who are affected by physical medical problems, could potentially have a NICS hit follow them for the rest of their lives if they can't get it addressed. If this is the case, this would be so awful.

 

I personally think the ISP backlog would be better helped if they stopped punishing people for getting voluntary mental health treatment (esp those who've only done it once in their lives).


Edited by Safegirl51, 25 May 2019 - 01:38 PM.


#7 Safegirl51

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 01:40 PM

People who could have benefited from counseling chose not to get it for fear of becoming prohibited in NICS.

Yep. And they stay off the radar and no gun permit process is going to prevent this. It's too bad certain politicians in our legislature can't figure that out.



#8 Euler

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 02:19 PM

People who could have benefited from counseling chose not to get it for fear of becoming prohibited in NICS.


Yep. And they stay off the radar and no gun permit process is going to prevent this. It's too bad certain politicians in our legislature can't figure that out.


It's not about whether they're "off the radar." These are ostensibly stable people who are not going to commit acts of violence because they're grieving a lost child, etc., but now they're going through it without professional help, because they don't want their civil liberties suspended. They have to make a choice about which is worse, so they choose sucking it up as the lesser of two evils. In the end, the law didn't prevent any crime, because none was ever going to happen. It didn't make anyone safer. It just made their hardship worse.

If people are truly a danger to themselves or others, the due process for that is a competency hearing. Doctors, psychologists, and social workers are not judges. They shouldn't get to short-circuit the process by noting a (possibly uncorroborated) opinion in a medical file, requiring people to find some other doctor to contradict it. It's an administrative path that begs for abuse.
The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.

- Albert Camus, Resistance, Rebellion, and Death, 1960.


#9 Safegirl51

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:50 PM

 

 

People who could have benefited from counseling chose not to get it for fear of becoming prohibited in NICS.


Yep. And they stay off the radar and no gun permit process is going to prevent this. It's too bad certain politicians in our legislature can't figure that out.

 


It's not about whether they're "off the radar."

Sorry, I was referring to the state's radar--the one ripe for abuse. It's terrible what legit, safe people have to through to avoid being caught up in this mess.



#10 Safegirl51

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 03:54 PM

The thing is. Its not about keeping guns away from bad people. Its just another piece of the pie for them which is a total ban.

I really didn't want to believe that and give folks the benefit of the doubt, but I see what you mean. Laws like this are only made to keep the public safe--from safe people. The process by which SB 1966 (especially) is being rammed through speaks volumes of how it's not about protecting gun rights at all.


Edited by Safegirl51, 25 May 2019 - 03:54 PM.


#11 springfield shooter

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 04:30 PM

 

The thing is. Its not about keeping guns away from bad people. Its just another piece of the pie for them which is a total ban.

I really didn't want to believe that and give folks the benefit of the doubt, but I see what you mean. Laws like this are only made to keep the public safe--from safe people. The process by which SB 1966 (especially) is being rammed through speaks volumes of how it's not about protecting gun rights at all.

 

 

It's got nothing to do with protecting gun right rights, only abusing them. And the pubic doesn't need "protection" from people that are obeying the laws already in place. The people that foist this junk know this, or they are incredibly dense.


Edited by springfield shooter, 25 May 2019 - 04:32 PM.

"I can't spare this man. He fights."  Abraham Lincoln


#12 Safegirl51

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 09:03 PM

 

 

The thing is. Its not about keeping guns away from bad people. Its just another piece of the pie for them which is a total ban.

I really didn't want to believe that and give folks the benefit of the doubt, but I see what you mean. Laws like this are only made to keep the public safe--from safe people. The process by which SB 1966 (especially) is being rammed through speaks volumes of how it's not about protecting gun rights at all.

 

 

It's got nothing to do with protecting gun right rights, only abusing them. And the pubic doesn't need "protection" from people that are obeying the laws already in place. The people that foist this junk know this, or they are incredibly dense.

 

Totally agree!  And I was saying in my last post "Laws like this are only made to keep the public safe--from safe people" as sarcasm.  I am very concerned as well that all those people care about is punishing the law-abiding. I really didn't want to believe that at first--as if they are doing this on purpose.  It's sad really. This whole thing is a travesty.



#13 steveTA84

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Posted 25 May 2019 - 09:17 PM

^^^^

You can’t reason with them. They are trying to do a few things

-make it burdensome to legally own a firearm
-dwindle the number of legal gun owners
-take away the 2nd amendment as much as possible
-make more criminals (gotta pay those court costs and fines $$$$)
-make a bad bill, then take some of it away to make it look reasonable and then pass it saying they compromised

They hate us. They flat out hate us and view us as potential murderers and accomplices in death. They will never stop. Our side it absolutely pathetic compared to them because while they are organized and united in their goal (getting rid of the 2nd amendment), our side can’t even decide what’s for dinner most of the time. Until EVERYONE (legislators, organizations, individuals) takes a hardline approach just like they do we will always lose, until we possibly win in court. I don’t want my tax dollars fighting something im against those.

#14 wolfcreek

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 03:07 AM

That old song from the 60s by the Animals keeps running through my mind as I reflect on my appeal.Sitting out there someplace.(in the shredder?)

"We gotta get out of this place.If it's the last thing we ever do".



#15 Prairie Pucker

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 02:56 PM

^^^^

You can’t reason with them. They are trying to do a few things

-make it burdensome to legally own a firearm
-dwindle the number of legal gun owners
-take away the 2nd amendment as much as possible
-make more criminals (gotta pay those court costs and fines $$$$)
-make a bad bill, then take some of it away to make it look reasonable and then pass it saying they compromised

They hate us. They flat out hate us and view us as potential murderers and accomplices in death. They will never stop. Our side it absolutely pathetic compared to them because while they are organized and united in their goal (getting rid of the 2nd amendment), our side can’t even decide what’s for dinner most of the time. Until EVERYONE (legislators, organizations, individuals) takes a hardline approach just like they do we will always lose, until we possibly win in court. I don’t want my tax dollars fighting something im against those.

 

IMO, you're being kind.  Their goal is to completely eliminate private gun ownership.  Period.  Also IMO, any legislators who participate in this scam should be charged with violating their oath of office.  Actions should have consequences. 


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#16 steveTA84

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 03:08 PM

^^^^^^

I’m not kind to them lol, and it makes some members here uncomfortable

#17 Molly B.

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Posted 26 May 2019 - 04:49 PM


 

IF we MUST insist on forcing people with VOLUNTARY care to get an evaluation or certification, they need better access to someone who will DO one at all. It's my observation that many in the medical establishment seem to have little to no understanding of how to handle FOID evaluation or certification requests and just outright deny their patients legit appeals. That needs to change. It's not fair, not moral, and reprehensible to those of lower socioeconomic status.

 

 

 

Thank you for letting me holler from my soapbox. This whole thing is so saddening. And maddening.  :mad(  :ermm:

 

 

I agree 100%  it is getting very, very difficult to find medical or mental health professionals who will do these certifications at a reasonable cost.  Rights are being denied based on a person's ability to afford thus comply with the requirements.


"It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." --Samuel Adams

#18 wolfcreek

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 02:17 AM

So you go the whole 9 yards and come up with the funds to get the evaluation.Like me ! You play the game.Because this is more then just getting the foid card.It's a test of  what is really going on here.If I took out a loan and paid whatever.Will I ever get a foid,or a reply ? I don't believe it matters anymore how much you spend or who you are. 



#19 kevinmcc

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 07:24 AM

In the meantime, people who could have benefited from counseling chose not to get it for fear of becoming prohibited in NICS.

 

Exactly. So much for helping people that are suffering from dependence or grieving. Not everyone is a threat that gets counseling...


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#20 kevinmcc

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 07:44 AM

Amendment 2 also strikes the $6 per FOID card going to the Fish and Wildlife fund.

On average that is over a $1 million dollars per year that DNR will not receive.

That means Willis is overfunding the ISP and underfunding DNR because of one incident in Aurora.

Got to love Illinois Democrats and their funding mandates.


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#21 357

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 08:32 AM

Cost increase of 1600 %.
If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.
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"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"
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"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act"
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#22 Safegirl51

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:15 AM

 


 

IF we MUST insist on forcing people with VOLUNTARY care to get an evaluation or certification, they need better access to someone who will DO one at all. It's my observation that many in the medical establishment seem to have little to no understanding of how to handle FOID evaluation or certification requests and just outright deny their patients legit appeals. That needs to change. It's not fair, not moral, and reprehensible to those of lower socioeconomic status.

 

 

 

Thank you for letting me holler from my soapbox. This whole thing is so saddening. And maddening.  :mad(  :ermm:

 

 

I agree 100%  it is getting very, very difficult to find medical or mental health professionals who will do these certifications at a reasonable cost.  Rights are being denied based on a person's ability to afford thus comply with the requirements.

 

Molly,

 

It's ridiculous. I've been researching this myself online and noticed that it's darn near impossible to find something/someone. Only just recently a FOID appeal specialist who was online is no longer there. Another firm stopped doing them I believe a couple years ago. Another one wants $1,000 for their services. And the county health department states they won't do evaluations for other agencies--due to funding. Talk about major barriers to law compliance.


Edited by Safegirl51, 27 May 2019 - 09:16 AM.


#23 Safegirl51

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Posted 27 May 2019 - 09:19 AM

So you go the whole 9 yards and come up with the funds to get the evaluation.Like me ! You play the game.Because this is more then just getting the foid card.It's a test of  what is really going on here.If I took out a loan and paid whatever.Will I ever get a foid,or a reply ? I don't believe it matters anymore how much you spend or who you are. 

Wolf,

 

Sadly, I totally agree. You play the game, and they leave you hanging--or kick you more when you're down. I'm not sure anything matters in this state anymore.


Edited by Safegirl51, 27 May 2019 - 09:20 AM.


#24 harley1955

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Posted 28 May 2019 - 02:28 PM

^^^^^^

I’m not kind to them lol, and it makes some members here uncomfortable

Well I'm certainly not one of them. They need to be treated like the pos they are.






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