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3hr Renewal Discrepancy?


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#1 John Q Public

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 11:02 AM

I think most of the instructors are gearing up for this and I taught one class. The deal is there is almost noway to cover what they say you need to cover in that time frame. 

 

From the new 3hr CCL cert:

 

1. All applicable State and Federal laws relating to the ownership, storage, carry, and transportation of a firearm; 2 hours Classroom Recommended 
a. The Act relating to the ownership, storage, carry and transportation of a firearm
 1) with emphasis on 430 ILCS 66/10(h) which includes instruction on the appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a  
  concealed firearm.
 2) with emphasis on 430 ILCS 66/65 which includes instruction on prohibited areas and the parking lot exception.
b. The FOID Act 430 ILCS 65/1 et. seq.
c. Relevant portions of the ILCS including but not limited to
 1) 720 ILCS 5/7-1. Use of force in defense of a person**
 2) 720 ILCS 5/7-2. Use of force in defense of dwelling**
 3) 720 ILCS 5/7-3. Use of force in defense of other property**
 4) 720 ILCS 24/1 et. seq. Unlawful Use of Weapons**
 ** Must define dwelling, aggressor, forcible felony and unlawful use of weapons pursuant to the ILCS.
2. Weapon Handling; 1 hour Range Recommended
a. Handgun fundamentals
b. Handgun concealment
c. Live fire qualification instruction
 d. Live fire qualification with a concealable firearm consisting of minimum of 30 rounds which must include 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards; 10 rounds from a
distance of 7 yards; and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards at a B-27 silhouette target approved by the Illinois State Police. (See https://www.ispfsb.com/and click
on the forms and brochures tab.)
I have read and understand the rules and requirements listed in 430 ILCS 66/1 et. seq., Firearm Concealed Carry Act. I understand the above curriculum was taught.
 
Okay that's from the 3hr cert they sent out, but here's the descepency from JCAR it says this:
 
From Section 1231.40  Curriculum Approval
 
e)         A 3 hour licensure renewal course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

 

1)         Two hours to cover:

 

A)        any updates to Illinois or federal firearms laws governing concealed carry in Illinois;

 

:cool:        updates in the Criminal Code Sections listed in Section 1231.10; and

 

C)        appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm; and

 

2)         One hour of instruction to include a live fire qualification with a concealable firearm using a B-27 silhouette target consisting of a minimum of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards.

 

f)         The Department may request a complete course outline and instructional notes or any additional course related information from the applicant. If the applicant refuses the request, the application will be deemed incomplete and returned to the applicant.

 

g)         Once approved by the Department, the curriculum may only be taught by an Instructor approved by the Department under Section 1231.20 who is listed on the registry of approved Instructors.

 

h)         Upon receiving substantiated information that a curriculum is not consistent with Section 75 of the Act, the Department may remove that curriculum from the list of approved curriculums maintained on the Department's website. 

 

i)          Once a curriculum is removed from the list of approved curricula, the decision to remove the curriculum from the list may be appealed to the Director of the Department and evidence must be presented that the factors resulting in the revocation have been resolved.  If the Director determines that the removal of the curriculum from the list was not warranted, or that the issues that resulted in that removal have been remediated, the curriculum approval shall be reinstated to the list.

 

Now that is doable in 3hrs, the first, is not. heck, all applicable Fed State FOID and those portions of the ICCA will take more than that without range time.


Edited by John Q Public, 30 May 2018 - 11:04 AM.


#2 Jeffrey

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Posted 30 May 2018 - 01:48 PM

You didn't think they were going to make this easy did you?


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#3 Molly B.

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 09:30 AM

Instructors have several areas to comply with - the law, the actual JCAR approved rules and regulations - and then to the best of our ability the ISP recommended practices.

 

The law :

(d) An applicant for renewal of a license shall provide proof of completion of a firearms training course or combination of courses approved by the Department of at least 3 hours.

 

JCAR Approved Rules and Regulations:

e)         A 3 hour licensure renewal course must, at a minimum, cover the following topics:

 

1)         Two hours to cover:

 

A)        any updates to Illinois or federal firearms laws governing concealed carry in Illinois;

 

B]        updates in the Criminal Code Sections listed in Section 1231.10; and

 

C)        appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm; and

 

2)         One hour of instruction to include a live fire qualification with a concealable firearm using a B-27 silhouette target consisting of a minimum of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards.

 

And the list on the certificate:

the words "with emphasis on" would lead us to believe that a review of the overall statutes covering major points and the emphasis on these topics would meet with ISP approval. If not,  they will need to propose new rules and regulations to JCAR.

 

For some instructors, 3 hrs. will not work, they will need more time.  Remember breaks and drive time to the range do not count.  As an instructor I will opt for a longer class time in order to cover all the bases.


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#4 NRApistol

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 11:19 AM

Jumping through all those hoops in a 3 hour period is going to be a pretty good trick.

 

I ran through my Renewal Firearm Curriculum a couple of weeks ago with a single applicant.  I used Power Point presentations and video clips with no interaction with the class,  no questions,  no hands on activities,  no discussions,  no handouts,  and NO breaks of any kind.  I talked as fast as I could and still be understood,  I did my paper work while the videos played.  It took me 2 hours and 50 minutes just to present the minimum classroom requirements FOR ONE PERSON.  Add in more students, question and answer sessions, bathroom breaks, registration, filling out certificates and range qualifying.....

 

No way for me to complete in anything close to 3 hours. I can see a lot of students complaining about it taking so long for a "3 hour class".


Edited by NRApistol, 30 June 2018 - 11:20 AM.

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#5 sirflyguy

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 12:35 PM

It is a MINIMUM 3 hrs. It will take longer if done right.

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#6 spanishjames

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 05:17 PM

So basically, we need the second eight hours of the sixteen to qualify again.

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#7 Mr. Fife

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 05:27 PM

Whatever it takes, that's what it will take. I'm interested in.partnering with someone, or group of someone's who have unfettered range access. Maybe we can form a group where costs and profits are split. Example, I can probably teach large amounts of classroom economically where another instructor can run a large amount of students through the live qualification. I'm wiling to partner and share, or join a coilition of other instructors willing to streamline the renewal process.
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#8 NRApistol

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 06:05 PM

If all I needed to do was follow the "law" and the "JCAR Approved Rules and Regulations", with the help of an RSO, I could easily run a group of 10 through the renewal course in 3 to 4 hours.  It`s the additional requirements that the ISP has added to the certificate that both the student and instructor must sign as having completed that`s the problem.  Molly, the attitude of "As an instructor I will opt for a longer class time in order to cover all the bases." may be fine from an instructor`s stand point.  The ISP has added obstacles not required by law or the JCAR,  Why hasn`t the ISRA or Illinois Carry been on this like flies on poop?

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#9 Molly B.

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 06:51 PM

If all I needed to do was follow the "law" and the "JCAR Approved Rules and Regulations", with the help of an RSO, I could easily run a group of 10 through the renewal course in 3 to 4 hours.  It`s the additional requirements that the ISP has added to the certificate that both the student and instructor must sign as having completed that`s the problem.  Molly, the attitude of "As an instructor I will opt for a longer class time in order to cover all the bases." may be fine from an instructor`s stand point.  The ISP has added obstacles not required by law or the JCAR,  Why hasn`t the ISRA or Illinois Carry been on this like flies on poop?


I don't know what makes you so sure we're not. We received the info the same time as everyone else. Things take time.
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#10 NRApistol

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 07:15 PM

 

If all I needed to do was follow the "law" and the "JCAR Approved Rules and Regulations", with the help of an RSO, I could easily run a group of 10 through the renewal course in 3 to 4 hours.  It`s the additional requirements that the ISP has added to the certificate that both the student and instructor must sign as having completed that`s the problem.  Molly, the attitude of "As an instructor I will opt for a longer class time in order to cover all the bases." may be fine from an instructor`s stand point.  The ISP has added obstacles not required by law or the JCAR,  Why hasn`t the ISRA or Illinois Carry been on this like flies on poop?


I don't know what makes you so sure we're not. We received the info the same time as everyone else. Things take time.

 

Are you saying the ISRA and Illinois Carry are fighting this?


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#11 solareclipse2

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 07:48 PM

 

 

If all I needed to do was follow the "law" and the "JCAR Approved Rules and Regulations", with the help of an RSO, I could easily run a group of 10 through the renewal course in 3 to 4 hours.  It`s the additional requirements that the ISP has added to the certificate that both the student and instructor must sign as having completed that`s the problem.  Molly, the attitude of "As an instructor I will opt for a longer class time in order to cover all the bases." may be fine from an instructor`s stand point.  The ISP has added obstacles not required by law or the JCAR,  Why hasn`t the ISRA or Illinois Carry been on this like flies on poop?


I don't know what makes you so sure we're not. We received the info the same time as everyone else. Things take time.

 

Are you saying the ISRA and Illinois Carry are fighting this?

 

 

Are you implying they're not?


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#12 Molly B.

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 08:09 PM

Are you saying the ISRA and Illinois Carry are fighting this?

 

 

Mr. B and I have a meeting with ISP Monday.  I can't speak for the ISRA.


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#13 NRApistol

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Posted 30 June 2018 - 08:09 PM

 


Edited by NRApistol, 30 June 2018 - 08:10 PM.

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#14 Molly B.

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Posted 02 July 2018 - 11:02 PM

We had a lengthy and very productive meeting with the  ISP Firearm Services Bureau Chief, ISP Chief Legal Counsel, and the Legislative Liaison.

 

In regards to the 3-hr. renewal course, we are to cover:

 

A)        any updates to Illinois or federal firearms laws governing concealed carry in Illinois; ownership, storage, carry, transport

 

B]        updates in the Criminal Code Sections listed in Section 1231.10; and

 

C)        appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm;

 

D)        Any updates to the FOID Act.

 

E)        prohibited places and parking lot exception

 

F)       Use of Force Statutes - person, dwelling, property - with definitions of dwelling, aggressor, forcible felony, and UUW

 

2)         One hour of instruction to include:

 

            A) Review handgun fundamentals

            B]  Review handgun concealment

            C)  a live fire qualification with a concealable firearm using a B-27 silhouette target consisting of a minimum of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards.


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#15 NRApistol

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 07:24 AM

Molly,  thanks, this is good news.  Will there be changes to the renewal certificate to reflect this? 


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#16 sirflyguy

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:13 AM

We had a lengthy and very productive meeting with the  ISP Firearm Services Bureau Chief, ISP Chief Legal Counsel, and the Legislative Liaison.
 
In regards to the 3-hr. renewal course, we are to cover:
 
A)        any updates to Illinois or federal firearms la6ws governing concealed carry in Illinois; ownership, storage, carry, transport
 
B]        updates in the Criminal Code Sections listed in Section 1231.10; and
 
C)        appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm;
 
D)        Any updates to the FOID Act.
 
E)        prohibited places and parking lot exception
 
F)       Use of Force Statutes - person, dwelling, property - with definitions of dwelling, aggressor, forcible felony, and UUW
 
2)         One hour of instruction to include:
 
            A) Review handgun fundamentals
            B]  Review handgun concealment
            C)  a live fire qualification with a concealable firearm using a B-27 silhouette target consisting of a minimum of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards.

Will there possibly be an addendum to CLIC to reflect the changes to the law sections mentioned?

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#17 stm

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 09:50 AM

Molly,  thanks, this is good news.  Will there be changes to the renewal certificate to reflect this? 

+1

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#18 Molly B.

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 03:37 PM

Molly,  thanks, this is good news.  Will there be changes to the renewal certificate to reflect this? 

 

Working on this.


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#19 Molly B.

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Posted 03 July 2018 - 03:40 PM

 

Will there possibly be an addendum to CLIC to reflect the changes to the law sections mentioned?

 

 

 

We usaually do an update to the curriculum but we will have to wait until after we see what happens with legislation on the Gov.'s desk.


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#20 NRApistol

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 07:51 AM

WAND TV Springfield ran a concealed carry renewal segment on this morning`s broadcast.  Per the report the ISP says it will take up to 4 months to process a renewal application and recommends CCL holders apply for renewal 5 months before their expiration date.   Instructors are still faced with no clear guidelines on the renewal process and a flawed renewal certificate.  We have no idea when the first applications will be accepted by the ISP or something in writing from the ISP about what we should teach to satisfy the renewal requirements.  Do we follow the law or JCAR or the Certificate requirements?  Time for a trip to meet with your state rep and try and put some pressure on the ISP to get this straightened out. Starting with the renewal certificate.


Edited by NRApistol, 10 July 2018 - 07:52 AM.

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#21 InterestedBystander

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 08:00 AM

WAND TV Springfield ran a concealed carry renewal segment on this morning`s broadcast.  Per the report the ISP says it will take up to 4 months to process a renewal application and recommends CCL holders apply for renewal 5 months before their expiration date.


*sigh* So as suspected, renewals are going to take the same amount of time as new applications. And those initial renewals I would expect to be higher in volume.

Edited by InterestedBystander, 10 July 2018 - 08:02 AM.

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#22 solareclipse2

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 09:31 AM

WAND TV Springfield ran a concealed carry renewal segment on this morning`s broadcast.  Per the report the ISP says it will take up to 4 months to process a renewal application and recommends CCL holders apply for renewal 5 months before their expiration date.  

 

Cool. Mine expires in June next year so I guess I'd better get a class in January of this year. 


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#23 Sweeper13

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 11:57 AM

WAND TV Springfield ran a concealed carry renewal segment on this morning`s broadcast.  Per the report the ISP says it will take up to 4 months to process a renewal application and recommends CCL holders apply for renewal 5 months before their expiration date.   Instructors are still faced with no clear guidelines on the renewal process and a flawed renewal certificate.  We have no idea when the first applications will be accepted by the ISP or something in writing from the ISP about what we should teach to satisfy the renewal requirements.  Do we follow the law or JCAR or the Certificate requirements?  Time for a trip to meet with your state rep and try and put some pressure on the ISP to get this straightened out. Starting with the renewal certificate.

 

 

 I thought read someplace (maybe it was another topic on forum), that renewal apps couldn't be submitted until 30 days before expiration of CCW.  Did I get some bad info?


Edited by Sweeper13, 10 July 2018 - 11:59 AM.


#24 bmyers

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:18 PM

WAND TV Springfield ran a concealed carry renewal segment on this morning`s broadcast.  Per the report the ISP says it will take up to 4 months to process a renewal application and recommends CCL holders apply for renewal 5 months before their expiration date.   Instructors are still faced with no clear guidelines on the renewal process and a flawed renewal certificate.  We have no idea when the first applications will be accepted by the ISP or something in writing from the ISP about what we should teach to satisfy the renewal requirements.  Do we follow the law or JCAR or the Certificate requirements?  Time for a trip to meet with your state rep and try and put some pressure on the ISP to get this straightened out. Starting with the renewal certificate.

 

Why apply 5 months early?

 

The law clearly states that as long as you have applied before your expiration date your license is still good while you are waiting on the renewal. They can take 3 years and you can still carry on your old license that is expired.


Edited by bmyers, 10 July 2018 - 12:18 PM.


#25 bmyers

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:20 PM

   ( c ) A license is invalid upon expiration of the license, unless the licensee has submitted an application to renew the license, and the applicant is otherwise eligible to possess a license under this Act.

 

The interesting part, to my knowledge, ISP has made no provision on how an individual will tell and/or an officer verify that the person has applied for renewal. Maybe a website update and you will have something to printout at the end of your application showing you have applied for renewal.


Edited by bmyers, 10 July 2018 - 12:23 PM.


#26 InterestedBystander

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:54 PM

WAND TV Springfield ran a concealed carry renewal segment on this morning`s broadcast.  Per the report the ISP says it will take up to 4 months to process a renewal application and recommends CCL holders apply for renewal 5 months before their expiration date.   Instructors are still faced with no clear guidelines on the renewal process and a flawed renewal certificate.  We have no idea when the first applications will be accepted by the ISP or something in writing from the ISP about what we should teach to satisfy the renewal requirements.  Do we follow the law or JCAR or the Certificate requirements?  Time for a trip to meet with your state rep and try and put some pressure on the ISP to get this straightened out. Starting with the renewal certificate.

 
 
 I thought read someplace (maybe it was another topic on forum), that renewal apps couldn't be submitted until 30 days before expiration of CCW.  Did I get some bad info?
There was original discussion about FOID cards which may be where that came from. Supposedly FOID renewals at available at 90 days although some claimed their renewal button went active at 6 months.
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#27 InterestedBystander

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 12:58 PM

( c ) A license is invalid upon expiration of the license, unless the licensee has submitted an application to renew the license, and the applicant is otherwise eligible to possess a license under this Act.
 
The interesting part, to my knowledge, ISP has made no provision on how an individual will tell and/or an officer verify that the person has applied for renewal. Maybe a website update and you will have something to printout at the end of your application showing you have applied for renewal.

Going through the web site to renew there should be an electronic record and no reason they can't add a renewal status just like they have for submitted, verified, approved, etc.

No surprise I guess, but why does it feel like they are waiting until the last minute to start getting all of this in place...

Edited by InterestedBystander, 10 July 2018 - 01:01 PM.

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#28 Mr. Fife

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 01:24 PM

They must have spent all the money that was supposed to prepare for this on the Pfleger Dan Ryan march.
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#29 Sweeper13

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 02:06 PM

They must have spent all the money that was supposed to prepare for this on the Pfleger Dan Ryan march.

 

Thanks for the info guys. This will be fun to see how this plays out. I dont trust the state to get this right.... Thats just me.


Edited by Sweeper13, 10 July 2018 - 02:07 PM.


#30 Molly B.

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Posted 10 July 2018 - 04:59 PM

Just repeating the info given to me by ISP:

 

 

We had a lengthy and very productive meeting with the  ISP Firearm Services Bureau Chief, ISP Chief Legal Counsel, and the Legislative Liaison.

 

In regards to the 3-hr. renewal course, we are to cover:

 

A)        any updates to Illinois or federal firearms laws governing concealed carry in Illinois; ownership, storage, carry, transport

 

B]        updates in the Criminal Code Sections listed in Section 1231.10; and

 

C)        appropriate and lawful interaction with law enforcement while transporting or carrying a concealed firearm;

 

D)        Any updates to the FOID Act.

 

E)        prohibited places and parking lot exception

 

F)       Use of Force Statutes - person, dwelling, property - with definitions of dwelling, aggressor, forcible felony, and UUW

 

2)         One hour of instruction to include:

 

            A) Review handgun fundamentals

            B]  Review handgun concealment

            C)  a live fire qualification with a concealable firearm using a B-27 silhouette target consisting of a minimum of 30 rounds and 10 rounds from a distance of 5 yards, 10 rounds from a distance of 7 yards and 10 rounds from a distance of 10 yards.


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