kurt555gs Posted August 9, 2012 at 01:55 PM Author Posted August 9, 2012 at 01:55 PM I think the votes are there for open carry, if you limit it to outside of home rule area's. I would like to see open carry statewide, but there is no need to throw it out when a compromise can be had. Texas has been fighting to bring open carry into law without success. So has Florida. Oklahoma just did, but not without years of fighting. To many here, open carry is important. It has shown to be very difficult to get back ones concealed only laws are passed.
Gray Peterson Posted August 9, 2012 at 06:19 PM Posted August 9, 2012 at 06:19 PM I think the votes are there for open carry, if you limit it to outside of home rule area's. You can't bifurcate the bill like that. Also, Quinn would amendatory veto it, requiring 71 votes anyway. I noticed you didn't answer my question before. Can we get an assurance from you that you will not get a carry license if it requires concealment, so you don't take the benefits of the bill you have threatened to not support and/or call for its defeat? I can excuse the hundreds of thousands who will apply without knowledge of this site or the general situation. Excusing you is a different matter.
kurt555gs Posted August 9, 2012 at 07:07 PM Author Posted August 9, 2012 at 07:07 PM Of course I would get a concealed only license. I would prefer both.
Gray Peterson Posted August 9, 2012 at 07:34 PM Posted August 9, 2012 at 07:34 PM Of course I would get a concealed only license. I would prefer both. Let me quote you: "I have been thinking of this issue a lot. I want to be united in riht to carry. But for me, that means open carry must be part of any bill I support. I think many here feel the same." That's not a statement of preference. That's "my way or the highway".
Blackhawk067 Posted August 9, 2012 at 07:35 PM Posted August 9, 2012 at 07:35 PM I think it's ridiculous to divide along these supposed party lines (e.g. "you need us open carry guys to support you"). Kurt, it would probably take about the same amount of time to get conceal/carry along with open carry passed together, as it would to get the former and then fight for the latter later. I.E.....a looooong way down the road. Florida is one of the states with the most liberal gun laws and they don't even allow it yet, and you want to demand open carry be tacked on to conceal/carry in one of the states that's fighting tooth and nail to not allow ANY type of carry? I agree with Gray and others that it's ridiculous that you would threaten your support unless your demands are met and then still take advantage of the accomplishments of those who've been fighting to just open the damn door. I think most of us are smart enough not to shoot ourselves in the proverbial foot because we simply realize what we're up against here and would rather have this giant victory that would give us the footing to fight for the other. All that being said, I don't think the "open carry camp" is as divided as you are and I seriously doubt they would pull their support if the first victory is within sight.
kurt555gs Posted August 9, 2012 at 09:07 PM Author Posted August 9, 2012 at 09:07 PM I want both open and concealed carry. I think it would be easier to pass HB5745 than it would HB148 and a separate open carry bill. There are not nearly as many open carry advocates as concealed carry supporters, so passing a separate open carry bill in Illinois would not have anywhere near the momentum. I have supported concealed carry. I am a member of the usual organizations, each year I donate to Illinoiscarry. Right now, I think it would be easier to pass an open carry outside of home rule bill than it would to pass concealed carry. I think it would even have good support in Cook county as a compromise. Personally, I would prefer HB5745 because it's less divisive. However, as many here have pointed out, we can always incrementally improve any carry bill. Even if we start with limited open carry.
kurt555gs Posted August 10, 2012 at 12:49 AM Author Posted August 10, 2012 at 12:49 AM Mr Peterson. Of course I want concealed carry. I have marched in IGOLD, talked to my Senator and useless rep gone to town hall meetings put on by Molly and the ISRA. Everything that can be expected. However, I want open carry as well. The big three are opposed to it. So, I will do what I can on my own to try to accomplish my goal. Sometimes I get frustrated and type when I shouldn't. However, I will not stop my quest for open carry, in addition to all I have done for concealed carry, even if it isn't the plan of those running this show. Does that clear things up?
Bud Posted August 10, 2012 at 01:34 AM Posted August 10, 2012 at 01:34 AM HB5745 and also HB 148 are most likely dead forever. If the 7th CA comes back in our favor, there will be a whoie new bill negotiated on our terms this time. I hope they exclude open carry though because it is a really lame idea.
LYU370 Posted August 10, 2012 at 02:15 AM Posted August 10, 2012 at 02:15 AM I would prefer to have both. If I'm carrying concealed and my shirt gets blown in the wind or the butt of my handgun slips up in my pocket and someone sees it. I don't want to have to worry about them calling the police. Would I actually carry in a holster on my belt? I don't know... Don't think I would, but having the option would be nice to have.
kurt555gs Posted August 10, 2012 at 02:49 AM Author Posted August 10, 2012 at 02:49 AM I know you don't like open carry Bud. Don't do it. But excluding a basic 2nd amendment right is not in the spirit of what many here support. Live and let live.
Gray Peterson Posted August 10, 2012 at 08:20 AM Posted August 10, 2012 at 08:20 AM I want both open and concealed carry. I think it would be easier to pass HB5745 than it would HB148 and a separate open carry bill. There are not nearly as many open carry advocates as concealed carry supporters, so passing a separate open carry bill in Illinois would not have anywhere near the momentum. I have supported concealed carry. I am a member of the usual organizations, each year I donate to Illinoiscarry. Right now, I think it would be easier to pass an open carry outside of home rule bill than it would to pass concealed carry. I think it would even have good support in Cook county as a compromise. Personally, I would prefer HB5745 because it's less divisive. However, as many here have pointed out, we can always incrementally improve any carry bill. Even if we start with limited open carry. We need to trust what Todd says when it comes to determining what we can do with the votes we have, especially after a win with Moore/Shepard. If he says we can't get open carry done because a pivot vote Representative does not want to ever see the open carrying of handguns in their travels because it generally alarms them, then we should take him at his word. Mr Peterson. Of course I want concealed carry. I have marched in IGOLD, talked to my Senator and useless rep gone to town hall meetings put on by Molly and the ISRA. Everything that can be expected. However, I want open carry as well. The big three are opposed to it. So, I will do what I can on my own to try to accomplish my goal. Sometimes I get frustrated and type when I shouldn't. However, I will not stop my quest for open carry, in addition to all I have done for concealed carry, even if it isn't the plan of those running this show. Does that clear things up? That's not what you said earlier (which I quoted directly), but I'll take your concession at this time. Don't get in the way or call for the bill's defeat, and we won't have a problem. I know you don't like open carry Bud. Don't do it. But excluding a basic 2nd amendment right is not in the spirit of what many here support. Live and let live. Let's put aside for a minute the arguments "Open carry is unsafe". That's not the real issue here. We are at loggerheads over what the "right" is. The right to carry is the basic 2nd amendment right, not the manner in which it is being carried. The language of "time, place, and manner" is in our constitutional jurisprudence, specifically manner, and the state has the authority constitutionally to limit the manner in which we carry (open versus concealed), but they cannot prohibit the right entirely (as they do in IL and DC), or engage in prior restraint which uses arbitrary & subjective criteria (every may-issue state) before one can acquire the ability to exercise the right. The only state with a "may-issue" concealed carry system that allows open carry without a license is Delaware. Despite some hoop jumping, concealed licenses will be issued to non-problematic individuals because during the hearing with the Prothonotary (the name of the Chief Clerk of the Superior Court), it's clear that they would rather one carry concealed than force someone to OC in Wilmington or Dover. This is why their law has not been changed. At this current time, concealed carry is considered the fullest right. Concealed carry in some form of another is allowed in 49 states, whereas open carry is only allowed in 43 states (states that are out are CA, MS per AG ruling, NY, SC, FL, AK, TX, OK until Nov 1st, will be #44). My first preference of course is to put Illinois in the "green" OC category so that we don't have a Florida or Texas problem with accidental exposure causing problems. However, if we have a pivot representative who just has an issue with OC on foot, we could theoretically horse trade other things like taking off some or most of the "exclusion zones" for carrying in return. I would not have a problem with this, and I would be able to sleep at night knowing that my friends and loved ones in Chicago and Illinois generally will be able to effectively carry. Of course, this will be Todd, Illinois Carry's executive volunteers, and others negotiating this with the Legislature, and not most of us here, and certainly not me. I merely visit Illinois on a yearly basis and soon to be on a more frequent basis for reasons other than guns (save my training course weekend day for a carry license).
Davey Posted August 10, 2012 at 10:47 AM Posted August 10, 2012 at 10:47 AM I don't think the judges will say whether open and concealed are each constitutional. I think they would simply say that a blanket ban is unconstitutional. It might not even rule out may issue. No matter what we need to tell our reps and senators to, as Rajesh Koothrappali once said, sack up.
bob Posted August 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM Posted August 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM It is hard to know just what will eventually be passable until the legal wrangling is done. It seems likely that the blanket ban on carry outside the home goes away eventually due to court rulings, but what takes its place is hard to say. Previous SCOTUS rulings have suggested that CC can be regulated, but not banned, leading some to think that SCOTUS thinks OC cannot be banned. Others have suggested that it can be a one of the other kind of thing. I don't think there is enough case law to know what is going to happen at SCOTUS with this. Whatever happens, it won't happen before June of 2013, maybe not until June of 2014, so I am not going to get real excited about anything just yet. We might get a favorable enough decision from the appeals court that gives us some leverage to pass a LTC bill or not. Until we get the decision, we just won't know. These cases have been all over the place. In the end my guess is that we don't get anything until we get some ruling from SCOTUS. I am not sure it has to be especially favorable either. LTC has a lot of grass roots support from a wide variety of liberatarian and conservative activists that is going to make it tough for legislators to ignore. When it was just us, we didn't have a chance. Now that it is more mainstream, it is almost inevitable. IMO, the only thing that is unclear is the timing.
borgranta Posted August 13, 2012 at 07:11 PM Posted August 13, 2012 at 07:11 PM The Dr? Where's the TARDIS?A tardis that is late is tardy.What do they call it if it is tardy 2 or more times?
axel2078 Posted August 13, 2012 at 08:21 PM Posted August 13, 2012 at 08:21 PM The Dr? Where's the TARDIS?A tardis that is late is tardy.What do they call it if it is tardy 2 or more times? Retardis?
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