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Picture of Zimmermans head immediately after shooting

Jeffrey

By Jeffrey
in National Politics

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Jeffrey Member

Jeffrey

Posted
  • Author
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I got to listen to the beginning but traffic wasn't slow enough this morning. :thumbsup:

 

There should be no question that Zimmerman was in a physical battle with these images shown. Can't wait to hear more details regarding the whole thing before any judgement from me.

oneshot Member

oneshot

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I don't think he acted wisely in the way he engaged Martin (a couple of ways, actually i.e. he didn't engage him verbally for identification), but this cinches it for me, I hope he gets off.
oneshot Member

oneshot

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Posted

If he gets off do you guys think there will be riots/whitch hunts? The whole Casey Anthony thing died pretty quick but she killed a white baby so no one cared.... This could get bad

 

Enough people have already passed judgement without knowing all the facts, or in spite of the facts, so I'm sure there will be some degree of backlash. Of course I just did the same, but then I haven't gone out and protested the arrest or attacked anyone who had the same skin color of that kid who attacked the mixed white/Peruvian guy. rolleyes.gif

Davey Member

Davey

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Posted

I doubt there will be riots like there were with the Rodney King case.

 

I'm sure local police will have an extra heavy show of force the day of the verdict.

C0untZer0 Member

C0untZer0

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Without going over the minutiea of the Zimmerman/Martin case, something like this was bound to happen. You might even say the Ersland case was a precursor to it.

 

What it does is highlight the ideolgical conflict that we find ourselves in.

 

On one side is the argument that "stand your ground", "castle doctrine" laws should be overturned because they lead to innocents being killed by overzealous vigilantes. This side also beleives that police can adequately protect everyone and that no one should ever take matters into their own hands to protect themselves. Individuals run amok. Things are better done at the societal level. If society buys into this type of thinking then they're basically saying that it's better that hundreds of store owners be terrorized, wounded and killed and hundreds of women raped and countless other citizens be robbed, mugged and burglarized, than even a single Travon Martin trajedy occur.

 

This ideological fight is not going to go away no matter what happens in this case.

 

There will be another case like it in a few years and it will again be the rallying point for people who don't beleive that individuals should be empowered to provide for their own safety.

Uncle Harley Member

Uncle Harley

Posted
Posted

Without going over the minutiea of the Zimmerman/Martin case, something like this was bound to happen. You might even say the Ersland case was a precursor to it.

 

What it does is highlight the ideolgical conflict that we find ourselves in.

 

On one side is the argument that "stand your ground", "castle doctrine" laws should be overturned because they lead to innocents being killed by overzealous vigilantes. This side also beleives that police can adequately protect everyone and that no one should ever take matters into their own hands to protect themselves. Individuals run amok. Things are better done at the societal level. If society buys into this type of thinking then they're basically saying that it's better that hundreds of store owners be terrorized, wounded and killed and hundreds of women raped and countless other citizens be robbed, mugged and burglarized, than even a single Travon Martin trajedy occur.

 

This ideological fight is not going to go away no matter what happens in this case.

 

There will be another case like it in a few years and it will again be the rallying point for people who don't beleive that individuals should be empowered to provide for their own safety.

 

 

The thing we need to make clear is that "stand your ground" doesn't = vigalantism. I like to use the example of a drive by shooting. If someone does a drive by and then speeds off, you have every right to return fire, but the second they stop shooting and start fleeing then you had better check yourself. If you continue shooting, or chase after them, then YOU are now the agressor. If he truely just questioned this kid then got jumped, he is in the right and the shooting justifiable. If he approached the kid in a way that made the kid feel threatened, then he is the agressor and I'm not so sure it will be considered justifiable if it escelated due to his actions. This is why if you have ever lisnted to any trainers on the subject of CC. No matter what, you have to try to de- escelate the situation when it's an option. This is a pretty grey area that I'm not sure if any case has ever hinged on before.

 

 

My prediction. He will be charged with manslaughter, had he not been the one to aproach the kid and then tail him, it would have been ruled justifiable and let go.

Jefferson24 Member

Jefferson24

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He is guilty of poor judgment but innocent of breaking any laws if his story is accurate. It also sounded to me like they have little evidence to discredit his story. One officer admitted that they have no evidence as to who initiated the confrontation even though his report indicated that Zimmerman did.
Uncle Harley Member

Uncle Harley

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He is guilty of poor judgment but innocent of breaking any laws if his story is accurate. It also sounded to me like they have little evidence to discredit his story. One officer admitted that they have no evidence as to who initiated the confrontation even though his report indicated that Zimmerman did.

 

 

while all this may be true if his story pans out, that doesn't always matter in the real world. It's going to be hard to find a jurror that hasn't been corrupted by the media. I still say guilty on a lesser charge, ( possibly copping a plea) and at most time served.

oneshot Member

oneshot

Posted
Posted

My prediction. He will be charged with manslaughter, had he not been the one to aproach the kid and then tail him, it would have been ruled justifiable and let go.

 

 

What do you mean? The charge of Murder 2 has already been filed, he can't be convicted of a lesser offense unless he agrees to a plea deal, which I don't think will happen. The prosecution has to clear the hurdle of Murder 2, not the lesser charge.

 

In order to prove second-degree murder, the prosecution must produce evidence that the alleged criminal committed the homicide with malice. In the matter of second-degree murder, the presence of malice does not call for the intent to cause death, and the issue of premeditation does not have to be proven.

 

My link

 

 

Online Law Dictionary: Murder (Malice)

Smittyp83 Member

Smittyp83

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Posted

What I found disturbing about the bond hearing was when a statement was made either by the presecutor or the judge (didn't catch which one) when asking Zimmerman about something that happened when he "committed this crime".

 

Uh, he didn't "commit a crime" until the jury decides he did.

oneshot Member

oneshot

Posted
Posted

What I found disturbing about the bond hearing was when a statement was made either by the presecutor or the judge (didn't catch which one) when asking Zimmerman about something that happened when he "committed this crime".

 

Uh, he didn't "commit a crime" until the jury decides he did.

 

Prosecutors state it as such routinely, it's their job to believe it and state it as such, the jury has to agree with them at the end of both cases being made.

oneshot Member

oneshot

Posted
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So with respect to what the prosecution has to do in order to convict Zimmerman on Murder 2, I think the main point they're going to have to attack is what he said on the 911 call, what troubles me is that he spoke of "these guys always getting away" (paraphrase). The prosecution will likely focus on this and try to convince the jury that Zimmerman didn't want yet another man who he perceived to be up to no good, likely a criminal in his eyes, getting away without punishment and the result of his actions carried out what he actually intended, punitive homicide. The race card is dead in the water, though they'll probably bring it up. Zimmerman didn't sound sure of what the race of the person he was calling about was until the 911 operator asked him. Zimmerman said today that he didn't realize how young Martin was, he said he thought he was older than Zimmerman! Another mistake he made, if you're going to be in a position to confront someone, in the dark, have a light to identify them!!! Ever since I first heard the 911 tape and the more I've thought about it, I'm convinced this guy was itching to earn his Junior G-Man badge. Very poor mentality for a man who owns a gun.
moparcardave Member

moparcardave

Posted
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I have heard that Zimmermans wife Shellie Nicole Zimmerman is also black. I can't comfirm this but it will definatly be interesting if this turns out to be true. Also heard on Fox news that the prosecution made a few mistakes as did the investigator on the stand. He said that he had no information to contridict Zimmermans statement that he was NOT pursuing Trayvon. When told not to he returned to his car. Seems in the past when he called these in, he in all cases returned to his car. First reports had Zimmerman as 240 lbs, well to goes maybe 170 tops.
vezpa Member

vezpa

Posted
Posted

I doubt there will be riots like there were with the Rodney King case.

 

I'm sure local police will have an extra heavy show of force the day of the verdict.

 

 

Many parts of the country will be up for grabs. Hopefully I'm very wrong.

BadWaterBill Member

BadWaterBill

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Posted

Martins parents are as much at fault as anyone else in this case. A 17 year old should not be allowed to go out WANDERING at 3 AM on a rainy night. What GOOD parent would not have grounded their offspring for being suspended from school even for ONE day let alone TEN.

 

As a single parent neither of my kids would have dreamed of leaving my house after bed time (10PM till after high school graduation.) And for a box of candy. Not real parents just breeders.

 

In the beginning of the whole drama in case some have forgotten Zimmerman was at his car door when challenged by Martin from behind.

 

The media has become the warped judge and jury for their own benefit and they will NOT be hauled into court for tampering with evidence. Who ever tampered with the 911 tape or knew about the tampering should also face charges.

 

The prosecutor witheld evidence when fileing the murder 2 claim on several counts. Again someone should answer.

 

This whole thing STINKS from one end to the other.

Thanks2mcdonald Member

Thanks2mcdonald

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Posted

Martins parents are as much at fault as anyone else in this case. A 17 year old should not be allowed to go out WANDERING at 3 AM on a rainy night. What GOOD parent would not have grounded their offspring for being suspended from school even for ONE day let alone TEN.

 

As a single parent neither of my kids would have dreamed of leaving my house after bed time (10PM till after high school graduation.) And for a box of candy. Not real parents just breeders.

 

In the beginning of the whole drama in case some have forgotten Zimmerman was at his car door when challenged by Martin from behind.

 

The media has become the warped judge and jury for their own benefit and they will NOT be hauled into court for tampering with evidence. Who ever tampered with the 911 tape or knew about the tampering should also face charges.

 

The prosecutor witheld evidence when fileing the murder 2 claim on several counts. Again someone should answer.

 

This whole thing STINKS from one end to the other.

 

This has to be the one of the most uneven and borderline and lacking knowledge posts I have seen lately. The call as about 7pm in the evening and not 3am. This is one of the few facts known at this time beyond someone is dead.

  • What evidence has been withheld? There has only been a bond hearing so more motions, discovery, etc. will occur and no indication of such so far.
  • Zimmerman at his car when challenged by Martin? Unknown.
  • Zimmerman initiated encounter with Martin when police told him they didn't need him to do so. Known.
  • Zimmerman had right to continue to approach Martin after police told him it was not needed. Maybe.
  • Martin had a right to be in the neighborhood walking in whatever he was wearing? Definitely...its called freedom and liberty.
  • What happened after that? Unknown.
  • Evidence tampering? Media hype over the call, yes. Tampering no.

And real parents, not breeders. Breeders...what is your purpose in saying such a thing? How much more derogatory can you be? Do you anything about their parenting skills? Doubtful. Incite? Yes

 

I agree this whole thing stinks. And post like yours are a big reason for it.

 

Let the facts come out and see what happens. This could be been an over-reaction that led to a huge mistake. There could have been a scenario were Martin did go after Zimmerman. Who knows. I do know these types of post do not help anything.

NakPPI Member

NakPPI

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Posted

IMHO there is little chance of a Florida jury convicting Zimmerman. Remember, it's a different culture in the gunshine state. The jury will be full of a bunch of people thinking "it could have been me" and the press coverage by itself makes a good case for reasonable doubt.

 

Riots? Probably not in Florida, I could see some fools in other states rioting possibly.

Mr. Fife Member

Mr. Fife

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Posted

I learned a long time ago not to judge until all of the facts are in. I remember during the OJ trial, thinking everything was open and shut. There was some new piece of evidence that wasn't previously heard during each day of the trial. My opinions went back and forth daily, depending on the testimony that was being given. I'm pretty sure we will still hear some things that weren't reported before.

 

One thing I'm pretty sure of, this won't be a short trial, and we will hear things each day that will sway opinions each way until the trial is over. And when it is over, there will be people who won't be convinced of the outcome. I'm going to sit back and listen with an open mind.

Tompo Member

Tompo

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has any evidence come forward (that I may have missed) on the distance between Zimmerman and Martin--when Martin was shot? Knowing how far apart they were will make a big difference.

 

Was Martin shot from 2 feet away? Less? or was he shot from 10 feet away? 15 feet?

 

What was the angle of the bullet? What was the trajectory? Did Zimmerman shoot UP into Martin? (When Martin was on top of Zimmerman, smacking his head into the sidewalk)

 

Those pieces of evidence could determine whether Zimmerman goes free--or goes to prison.

Hossua Member

Hossua

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Posted
One thing that sticks out to me is that everyone holds up the operator telling Zimmerman they didn't need him to pursue as being an order not to. I suspect it was more for his own protection.

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